Hunting ethically

[Sneaky Pete]

Just got back from a trip up north with the family, while I was away I was reading an Australian deer hunting magazine that a mate (rifle hunter) lent me. There was an article in there by a bloke who shot his first deer while out hunting for the first time with a hound team, and some of the tactics he gleefully talks about made me see red. Firstly, this bloke talks about how one of his mates told him on the 2-way radio that there was a deer heading his way. Then, after telling how he shot this deer after the UHF heads-up from his mate, he says that the day wasn't over because the hounds were still following their deer. In other words, the guy is out with a hound team and has shot a deer other than the deer the hounds are onto. My understanding was that one of the principles of ethical hunting with hounds is that when the dogs are onto a deer, other deer leaving the area are supposed to be left alone. Not only does this bloke brag about an illegal and unethical days shooting (not hunting), but a magazine publishes it.
This got me thinking a bit about the concept of ethical hunting and regard for the game. There seems to be a decline in the concept of fair chase. Perhaps it has something to do with the incredible amount of gadgetry, particularly from the US, which seems to promise to take out the effort and give the 'hunter' some kind of edge. If i'm reading articles in US bowhunting magazines about spraying areas with scent lures and even planting feedplots to bring the deer to me, it seems to undermine the concept of putting in the long hours- and years- of stalking the game, learning it's habits and habitat etc. Some of the things that seem to pass for 'hunting' over there- such as setting up baits or feed stations- I find very dubious.
Also, my main interest in bowhunting is in hunting Sambar. There has been a lot of hard work and lobbying done over the years by dedicated hunters, to have Sambar recognised and managed as a Game species rather than a feral animal. That is why there are regulations as to when and how they may be hunted. With current pressure from green groups to have them declared as vermin, if we hunters are seen to treat them as vermin we will have no argument when they are being wiped out with poison baits and contract spotlight shooting.
I'd be interested in other's thoughts on these things.
Pete

[steviebby]

I have no problem with that bloke shooting a deer the dogs wernt chasing different teams have different rules , and as for the radio mmm I hope soon they fix the legistration for that so you can legally use them during the hunt Its hard enough hunting them as it is and with all the places dogs arent suppose to go the team leader needs to conduct the hunt with the best possible chance of containment to a system (and that could be a massive area)If it werent for hound hunters we would allready have professional baiters/spotlighters and the herd would be so far out of balance(like the gatta is now),I thank them for there non selective ways,And I assure you (I used to hound hunt alot) it is hunting very hard hunting at that, but thats just my take on it Im sure we will get someone elses!

[Dale Furze]

This ethics thing pops up from time to time and as I and many others have said before, ethics are a personal thing, not the result of peer pressure. There is a defined line between unethical and unlawful. The unethical /ethical bit is your perceived view on things.

To me, hunting over Hounds with a rifle is not my cup of tea. However, I don't preach to them how they should or should not be doing it. Their presence has pushed that particular species further afield than their original southern Victoria range into fringe areas that I enjoy hunting. For this I am actually a bit grateful for.

When it comes to using lures, baits, feed plots or decoys again that is a personal thing, obviously in America it is the norm, so when I read about it I just take it in and enjoy the story for what it is.

Pete, I too hunt Sambar. They are a hard animal to hunt. I have thought about planting some good feed in a secluded gully to keep them in the area, just too tight with the funds to follow it through.

A new property I have just got onto has no water about, I stood beside a rub that had mud on it. I searched all day for the wallow, on the way back to the car I found some kneel marks in a dried up puddle on a disused track, the poor bugger had to have a pommy wallow in a rain puddle! Further along I found a flooded wombat hole, I am thinking of shoveling it out and make a nice convenient wallow for him. Would this be unethical? A bloke I know fills up some wallows with 20l water containers due to the drought, is this bad?

I have for a number of years used high tech wheely bows, adjustable sights, release aids, 3D camo, range finders, game cameras and treestands, all to make my hunting more enjoyable. 20 years ago when I was hunting barebow a compound that had oval cams instead of wheels was considered 'cheating'. How things have changed.

Now don't get me wrong Pete, I can see where you are coming from and that is your own opinion, just like your ethics ;).

These posts usually bring some strong replies, remember, ethics are different from a code of conduct.

Dale.

[200knives]

the way i see it , deer are just another introduced species to australia , and are vermin same as the rabbit and the fox ,and should be killed. they should`ve never been introduced , they were only introduced just because some idiots wanted something to hunt.

[200knives]

i hate those idiots that introduced species just to hunt them , and the idiots that pay to do so

[Evil Taco]

personally i dont like the idea of using radios for hunting.. isnt hunting about you agianst the deer? not the five other blokes who are helping you corner this distressed animal?.. I saw a video clip of U.S. "hunting" for whitetail... this bloke was in a bunker with this little window he pulls up a chair tells the camera man to wake him when a deer arrives and falls asleep... he wakes up a few hours later pulls out his bow shoots this deer from 20m who had no idea what he was and then goes on about how hard and streneous this hunt was...??? that is not hunting thats sleeping...

[Clemo]

I think we loose sight of the fact that (as stated) deer, or any other introduced animals are vermin.
I get sick of hearing "you should shoot the animals with poor genetics and let the good stuff bread so there will be better trophies", that to me is unethical hunting.
People call themselves conservation hunters, what are they trying to conserve? The natural ecology or their ability to go hunting? My guess is the latter.
I was once trying to gain access to a property that contained good numbers of deer, I approached the property owner and asked, "can I come and do some bow hunting", I told him about bow hunting and that I would have no hope of thinning out the population, I just want to hunt them.
He told me that a well known organization (which I am a member of) had organised a cull through its members, he said I will pass on your contact details if you want. No worries I said, thinking I might still get a chance.
The organization latter contacted me to ask if I would like to be considered to join the Cull. Sure I said, I asked what was the objective of the cull and he replied that they had approached the property owners with the premise that they wanted to reduce the numbers which would be of great benefit to farmers and local traffic (their had been some serious collisions with deer). He then went on to say that in reality they wanted to control the hunting on the properties by building a repour with owners which would allow them to maintain a productive deer hunting area for its members.
To my way of thinking, not only was this not ethical it was bordering on fraudulent misrepresentation.

[irish murphy]

i hate those idiots that introduced species just to hunt them , and the idiots that pay to do so


Thats very easy to say.Do you hunt????If so what do you hunt????
Everything i hunt is a feral introduced species.If there were no ferals we wouldnt be posting this on a hunting forum,it would be a target forum.I have had a simmilar conversations with yank mates and they took a little while to undertstand that what they hunt is mostly native animals with seasons were we hunt feral introduced pests with little to no seasons.I can agree with some of the choices of pests that have been introduced like cane toads european wasps and some others that really didnt need to come here.But if there were no feral animals it would be a bloody boring place to own bows or firearms mate.

[Dale Furze]

This is what ethics are about-

http://www.aussiebowhunter.com/showthread.php?t=3270&highlight=ethics

I don't see a great deal of difference between radios and your mate sitting on a hill giving you hand directions :confused:.

Dale.

[snowy1]

.

To me, hunting over Hounds with a rifle is not my cup of tea. However, I don't preach to them how they should or should not be doing it. Dale.

im with dale ,
i have hunted sambar for many years (stalking with a rifle)and altho i dont agree or suport the use of scent trailing dogs that trail the deer for several kilomteres where it becomes exhausted and bails up in the river or runs up a road to be faced by an armed chap whos been standing by a road side fire for the last 3 hours.

hunting ....NO not in my opinon -shooting yes.i havnt hunted sambar over the dogs and have no desire to do so but under the current game regulations it is leagal and their is NO BAG LIMIT for sambar .so if they shoot one deer and another 3 run up the road they can under the bag limmit shoot those also .:confused:-

we have been stuck in the middle of a hound hunt ...it aint much fun .

sambar are being exterminated at present by farmers who border state forests under distruction permits .they have to make a living and to see your vines or olive trees demolished night after night would be depressing .

we are still working hard with the victoria government thru game con to prevent sambar becomeing a declared vermin .they are breeding well and after the big fires in victoria sambar are being found in areas of the state where they have never been before .

i stand with other hunters rifle or bow in the respect that if we dont all pull our weight and work together as ONE group then we will loose what is special to us all .

that said we all have differing opinions and each voice should be regarded as such .

snowy

[rory]

would normally not comment on this sort of thread...

but... 200knives, mate, you are one wierd hunter mate. If it weren't for the intoduced species what would we hunt? sorry, thats right, the antlered magpie.......

Wake up!

[nev]

after seeing what damage goats pigs foxes rabbits etc do to this great land of ours i wouldnt care i think your being quiet selfish. cos if we'd never had it in the first place we wouldnt know what we were missing out on.

...nev...

[excelpoint]

Personally I always have a small light weight UHF with headset on when I'm hunting. My mate has the same thing and we use it primarily to keep in touch so we dont get in each others way when we are on a stalk and secondly I would have no problem giving my hunting mate a heads up if I knew some game was heading his way. If that is seen as unethical then so be it. As for using decoys, feed lots calls etc there are many many forms of hunting that use them but are never considered unethical. Duck hunters use decoys and calls, fox hunters use calls, game bird hunters here use pointing dogs to locate and flush birds etc etc as well as establishing habitat for the game to feed and live in, are all these things unethical as well because if they are I'm guilty of them all.

[Sneaky Pete]

Thought this might get some differing opinions! Here's a few more thoughts;
With regard to hound hunting- there are people who put in years of effort breeding and training hounds and learning the behaviour of the deer and the geography of their hunting area etc. Then there are the people who will go out with that person every now and then, get told where to stand, and shoot something that walks past them. One of these two I can respect as a hunter. I expect there are many people who fall somewhere in between the two.

With regard to technology; I think you could maybe categorize things something like this:
1; camouflage & concealment
2; locating the quarry
3; taking the shot
4; manipulating the behaviour of the quarry
5; manipulating the environment
(I'm sure there could be other categories I haven't thought of).

Within each of these categories, there are probably a wide spectrum of things that can be done, and somewhere along the line different hunters would say something is unethical. In category 2, for instance, most hunters would accept the use of binoculars but not infra-red scanners (setting aside legality issues).
Topping-up wallows, waterholes etc (category 5?);I think there is a big difference between providing water so that game can survive in a drought affected area for future hunting, as opposed to wetting down a wallow so that it is the only useable wallow in the area and then staking it out to shoot deer that use it. Not sure which of these is being referred to.

[Sneaky Pete]

If that is seen as unethical then so be it. .

When deer hunting in Victoria, it is also illegal. That is because the dedicated hunters I mentioned earlier have managed to get some basic ethical considerations enshrined in legislation. Let your mate spot his own deer!

[jindydiver]

You guys in Victoria who use your radios to tell your mates the location of game are breaking the law, obviously this is not considered ethical by anybody.

Anyway
Why do people feel they need to jump all over other hunters just because they feel the other hunters ethical model is inferior to their own, or because they feel so superior in their own choices that they see the other hunter as not being a hunter at all? It is pathetic to stand on the side of the anti-hunters and ride all over other hunters just because you can. If you don't like what they do just say you don't like it (if you must) and leave it at that.
What happens to our hunting when the anti-hunters get a previously legal form of hunting banned? They move onto the next form of hunting they want banned, and how many types of hunting will go South before they get to the hunting YOU enjoy?

[excelpoint]

You guys in Victoria who use your radios to tell your mates the location of game are breaking the law, obviously this is not considered ethical by anybody.. I just found that in the Vic Hunting guide in relation to deer hunting. I didnt even know it was in there and i thought I had read it fairly well(obviously not), Thanks for that.Who says you cant learn something new every day.

[nev]

I think none of you are ethical . I run down my pray naked and when i catch them i bite em on the throat and skin em with my teeth:o:o:P

if you use a weapon of any kind you've got the advantage . There seems to be alot of holier than thow people getting on this site lately and as far as im concerned if its legal its OK.AND for the record ive hunted with most weapons and at the time enjoyed it immensely now im back where i started with a basic longbow and im enjoying that now:D:Das i said before to each his own

[excelpoint]

I think none of you are ethical . I run down my pray naked and when i catch them i bite em on the throat and skin em with my teeth:o:o:PLOL.

[snowy1]

I think none of you are ethical . I run down my pray naked and when i catch them i bite em on the throat and skin em with my teeth:o:o:P

if you use a weapon of any kind you've got the advantage .

:eek::P:o

enough said the thread could be closed now

snowy;)

[hunt or be hunted]

Thats very easy to say.Do you hunt????If so what do you hunt????
Everything i hunt is a feral introduced species.If there were no ferals we wouldnt be posting this on a hunting forum,it would be a target forum.I have had a simmilar conversations with yank mates and they took a little while to undertstand that what they hunt is mostly native animals with seasons were we hunt feral introduced pests with little to no seasons.I can agree with some of the choices of pests that have been introduced like cane toads european wasps and some others that really didnt need to come here.But if there were no feral animals it would be a bloody boring place to own bows or firearms mate.

i agree:) if it wasn't for feral animals i would probably be a fat chubby kid watching t.v 24/7.

dan.

[dazza]

I have no problem with that bloke shooting a deer the dogs wernt chasing different teams have different rules , and as for the radio mmm I hope soon they fix the legistration for that so you can legally use them during the hunt Its hard enough hunting them as it is and with all the places dogs arent suppose to go the team leader needs to conduct the hunt with the best possible chance of containment to a system (and that could be a massive area)If it werent for hound hunters we would allready have professional baiters/spotlighters and the herd would be so far out of balance(like the gatta is now),I thank them for there non selective ways,And I assure you (I used to hound hunt alot) it is hunting very hard hunting at that, but thats just my take on it Im sure we will get someone elses!

well said mate,thefew hound hunts i went on last year the deer was always a km or 2 in front of the beagles

[special]

Just hope we dont get like the yanks..with automated feed stations to lure them in and explosive arrow heads..supposedly to turn them back towards you:eek::eek::eek:

[dazza]

You guys in Victoria who use your radios to tell your mates the location of game are breaking the law, obviously this is not considered ethical by anybody.

Anyway
Why do people feel they need to jump all over other hunters just because they feel the other hunters ethical model is inferior to their own, or because they feel so superior in their own choices that they see the other hunter as not being a hunter at all? It is pathetic to stand on the side of the anti-hunters and ride all over other hunters just because you can. If you don't like what they do just say you don't like it (if you must) and leave it at that.
What happens to our hunting when the anti-hunters get a previously legal form of hunting banned? They move onto the next form of hunting they want banned, and how many types of hunting will go South before they get to the hunting YOU enjoy?

Genrally its not the location unless its bailed ,this could be in a wallow,gully head,river etc etc,and if the deer gets a whiff of ya or hear's ya comming it'll be out of there quick smart.moreso you might get told were the deer may be heading [eg a sadle],but this happens before the hunt starts.Anyway got some bread and butter pudding to eat,cheers,dazz.