2 blades - Narrow versus Wide broadheads

[howie]

The mature billy followed the game pad around the hill and came to a stop, broadside some guestimated 25 yards away. Jack was on my left organising the video camera and when he gave me the nod, I split the pins over his vitals and cut the shot. Complete arrow penetration - no surprise there. I walked to where the billy was standing,the impact site easily identified by the first spots of crimson stuff on the ground. The blood trail was easy to follow, thick on the ground and lots of it. He didn't travel far.
This hunt occurred a few weeks back and at the time I was using one of the widest 2 blade broadheads on the market. The entry and exit wound channels freely let his air bags (lungs) down and crimson stuff out.

Over the years I have spoken to a few bowhunters about the pros and cons of narrow vs wide heads and it may of been discussed previously on this site, but with the amount of new members joining, I thought it might be of value to re-iterate old thoughts and new ideas.
I am a great believer of using a wide 2 blader or solidly constructed 3 blader. My logic is simple, the bigger the cutting head, the more it cuts and the bigger the wounds are, fairly simple concept.
One way I explained this to a mate was as follows, take two hot water bottles, (lungs) and fill them with the same amount of water, take two identical arrows but one with a narrow and one with a wide broadhead and shoot them thru the centre of the bottles.
Which one is going to loose the liquid the fastest, the narrow or wide hole?
With todays high tech gear, the vast majority of shots obtain total broadhead penetration, so why not use a wider head and cut more tissue on the way thru.
A thread posted not long ago indicated a deer apparently centre punched with a 2 blader and not recovered.
Would a wider cutting broadhead have had the same outcome?
Would a bigger wound left more of a blood trail to follow?
Would the narrower head penetrated deeper than a wider head?

Something to discuss..... Lets hear some thoughts.........

[woodstoka]

howie i agree with you mate.

when my new arrows come im planning of boosting up the weight and try some expandable 3 bladders for sambar because of the field point accuracy and im not risking losing and wasting another deer , however im scared on impact the blades arnt going to open properly and my arrow is only going to go in affew inchs and the deer is going to run off =[
so im thinking of trying some solid 3 bladders that arnt to pricy and fly true
any one got some idea thanks heaps jesse

[PATBOWTECH]

SOLID 3BLADE (THUNDER HEADS) FOR ME.
My mate and I tested various broadheads on solid timber/old truck tyres not that long ago.
3 bld thunderheads of 125 grn wt punched through the best

[TOMMO]

A properly sharpened two blade (narrow or wide) put in the right spot will definitely do the job and it should be quick, how quickly this takes depends greatly on the species targeted and also the state of the animal when shot. If the animal is remotely alert to the hunter prior to the shot they generally go further after the shot than an unalerted one but will still go down provided the shot was in the kill zone. In this instance a larger wound, being harder to close, that may bleed more freely is an advantage for tracking for sure so a wider two blade or hole leaving three blade makes sense. Cut more tissue and leave more sign. Some of PeterM's Fallow pics with gaping 'Rage' holes from this season are a good case in point.

From my experience broadhead type on shots that are marginal ie too far back, too high, too, low, too far forward or into hard bone make minimal difference to recovering the animal, although a larger wound that may drop more sign to follow is an advantage in this scenario when trying to get close for another shot.

I have a preference for cut on contact three blades out of my recurve as they do leave a large hole to bleed from and game taken with them generally have fallen within 5-30 metres. Penetration has not been an issue with these either though I am not going to use them on Buffalo. Shots taken have been money shots that any two blade would have achieved just as easily too.

More important to have a well tuned bow and arrow that will shoot the given super sharpened broadhead and appropriatly weighted shaft into the right spot. If you can achieve this with a wider or larger cutting head, then it can only be a good thing.

[HareSplitter]

well that deer could have been hit pretty square and no blood what so ever, why? becuase the blood probably didnt come out the wound and was only internal bleeding (hemerage if thats what you call it). i would say a bigger broadhead, a bigger hole, more dammage and blood to follow. But I shot a goat with a mech head and all blades opened, but there was very little blood on the ground but the goat only made it 40-50 m. i am not 100% sure why the blood doesnt all ways pour out but i would say blood clots.
i would still go with a wider head because its a win win in my situations

[Sagitarius]

Good idea Howie, I've been thinking about this a bit over the last few days. I'm looking at getting some Deltas or Aztecs in my next order and am kicking myself for not picking some up before my last hunt. In the last talk on broadheads I was convinced the wider the better, as long as you can still hit the mark with them.

My answers are below:

Wider is faster.
Might have, damn it.
More blood out of a bigger hole seems true.
I think the narrow one may penetrate deeper but they will both penetrate enough to hit both hot water bottles... I mean lungs. :P

[woody]

Its not just about width of cut.

I agree that if you can get total penetration ( heavy bow, heavy arrows) and can get the wider heads to fly accurately, bigger is defineately better.

If you are shooting a lighter equipment class, where penetrating energy is minimal, or hunting big, big game, a narrow penetrating 2 blade head will cut more tissue from deeper penetration.

I think most trad bowhunters are probably better off with a narrow 3:1 style 2 blade, unless there drawing big poundage and using very heavy arrows.

For compound shooters using a 70# bow and medium to heavy arrows, a big head can be an excellent choice.

Its often said narrow heads dont leave good blood trails, ( an arrow in the right place always helps) but I think there is something about heads that cut holes wider than an inch and a half.

The 1 1/2" cut seems to cut enough muscle fibre for the wound to gape open.Blood trails are short and heavy.

[Sagitarius]

Any big 1 1/2" mothers in outback broadheads?

[DavidJHardy]

outback supremes from hares to buff... i swear by them... one sided bevel, razor sharp and stay that way for ever, high carbon spring steel, they fly like field points they are so accurate.

[rory]

Possibly another question to add to the list Howie;

Will a wide 2 blade tune/fly as sweetly as a narrower 2 blade head?

This obviously has a lot to do with the manufacture of the head itself, and the over all tune of the set up being used, but the the wider blade must be more prone to planing, or wind hitting it. I feel that the arrow would also spin slower with the wider head, and therefore effect the arrows ability to stabilise out fo the bow, and it's accuracy on the target.

Now this might sound stupid, but with the power that can be genterated from not only the efficient bow (esp. in high poundages) but also in heavy arrows, is it not fair to say that perhaps even more initial damage can be done to an animal (from fox size through to deer size) by purposfully shooting for the shoulders?

Skeletal structural damage is surely another (but perhaps not discussed widely yet) factor in the effectivness of the shot?

Blood trails arn't as important when the critter cannot physically get away...?

Just a thought :) ;)

[Rock Steady]

IMO

I used to hunt with two different bowhunters that only used Iron Barks, the small BlackStump head. Their theory was accuracy and razor sharp are the two main needs of a BH. I must admit we never had any real trouble tracking their game as they rarely traveled far, punch a sharp head through the heart and game tends to drop fairly quick, I agree punch a larger sharp head through the same impact point can only be a good thing and possibly speed things up.

When we talk about accuracy (being able to hit exactly where we aim). Inexperienced bowhunters can be extremely accurate but aiming at the wrong spot on their game. I have taken what I thought to be experienced hunters away only to watch them hit big boars/Billies in all the wrong places resulting in a cranky boar or sick billy, long tracking session and the possibility of something trying to eat you at the end of it all. :P Plus I feel bad if the animal I target does not drop quickly, I am not interested in causing my game any pain only a quick clean harvest.:(

List of Important
1. Correct poundage/equipment for the game you are targeting.
2. Razor Sharp head of a design suitable for the game you are harvesting.
3. Knowing the location of Heart/Lungs of the game you are targeting regardless of the shot angle.
4. Being able to consistently put the BH where you aim (accuracy).
5. Suitable camo for terrain you are hunting in.

The list can be added to but you get the idea.

I use 68lb Bowtech “Old Glory” with Carbon arrows fitted with 3x2 Blazers and Razor sharp solid BlackStumps I find I can shot everything from Rabbits to Scrub Bulls, there is no thinking about which arrow to pull out of my quiver as they are all identical and I know they are all suitable for any animal I find.:D

Once you make your arrows test fire each one from the at least 15-20 meters to find any problem arrows so you can redo them or scrap them. Then sharpen your arrows and test fire them all again, once you’re happy they fly sweet then touch them up go hunting.:D

Just because you can hit something at 50 meters don’t. IMO the most effective range for a bow is 2meters to 30 meters; the average distance for all my shots is about 12 meters. The amount of times I have heard people say “I shot him at 45-50meters and it’s was a good hit it is defiantly dead” but when I ask to see the photo they say they could not find the animal. If you can not find the animal you have know idea if its dead or just laid up wounded somewhere, you are only kidding yourself or trying to make yourself feel better for taking a shot you shouldn’t have taken.:mad:

I feel tempted to say “size does not matter, its what you do with it that counts” but Luke might get upset.:P

I do agree overall a bigger hole means better blood loose etc and if it means the animal drops quicker that can only be a good thing.:)

Michael

[Benno]

Woody (this is mostly directed at you cause i get so many of my broadheads from you but it fits in this thread). Ive shot a fair few camels now with the single bevel outback supremes and had no trouble. Last one was a good big bull and 2 of the three arrows partially came out the offside which is great on at 900kg animal so im not looking to change my camel setup any time soon.

But I also shoot the odd little animal like donkeys n horses n pigs etc. With those animals i notice that the penetration is a little excessive - the arrows can go 50m or more out the other side. This made me think prehaps a wider cutting head would do more damage as penetration isnt an issue.

Im shooting 70bls and approx 550g arrow, i guess the question is would my setup still push a 1 1/2 inch broadhead out the other side of say a donkey?

Im not the worlds best shot so any help i can get from the broadhead would be great!

[howie]

woodstoka, PM sent

[ozzyshane]

Howie the wide heads are great if you can get them to group give us a run down on your set up from bow,weight,draw length,arrows, the hole deal it will give guys a look into what is needed to get them to work ,i found with the last doe i shot with the after shock it made the biggest mess inside an animal ive ever seen that was with a 2'' cut but you lose a lot of peno im not shoting at stags untill i do a bit more testing on some goats and some more does ,

I have some aztecs that im going to have a play with .

I think what we are all after is the quikest way to put an animal down for the count.

In the end the only way to know is to get out there and cut some holes in some ferals and see buy eye what works best.

You got me thinkin Howie and that is dangerous Thanks Shane

[howie]

70 pound Marquis shooting Goldtip 75/95's, 3 x 2 in blazers, release and w/b. The broadhead is a Magnus 150 grain 4 blader but I remove the 10 grain bleeders. The heads are 2 1/2 inches x 1 1/2 inches. I make up a fieldtip the same weight as the heads and start with a bare shaft and shoot it into a target butt, make necessary adjustments and maybe do some paper tunning. When the arrow is flying relatively straight and level, I then shoot a fieldtip arrow and broadhead arrow together and make the necessary adjustments.
With the bow being tuned I found there was no difference with point of impact out to 60 yards, taking into account human error of course. When I am shooting well at 60 yards I can put the arrows in good groups and there appears to be no wind planning.
I have shot a few animals now with this set up and the wound channels are very good, there is very little to no chance of these wounds closing over, although in saying that - I haven't shot a pig with them, just billies and fallow. IMO if your shooting those rage type heads I think a heavy bow and arrow combo is necessary to obtain the penetration required.
Hows that shano!!

[woody]

Any big 1 1/2" mothers in outback broadheads?



http://users.ncable.net.au/~woody/Tech%20Specs.html

Sagitarius, I do one called the Hunter XL.

Its not for everybody, but if you shoot gear with plenty of grunt it may be worth a look

I also have a 4 blade called the Shikari under developement, but have been frustrated with hold ups from my ferrule supplier, it should not be too far away.

I will post any news when they become available on my web site.

[woody]

Woody (this is mostly directed at you cause i get so many of my broadheads from you but it fits in this thread). Ive shot a fair few camels now with the single bevel outback supremes and had no trouble. Last one was a good big bull and 2 of the three arrows partially came out the offside which is great on at 900kg animal so im not looking to change my camel setup any time soon.

But I also shoot the odd little animal like donkeys n horses n pigs etc. With those animals i notice that the penetration is a little excessive - the arrows can go 50m or more out the other side. This made me think prehaps a wider cutting head would do more damage as penetration isnt an issue.

Im shooting 70bls and approx 550g arrow, i guess the question is would my setup still push a 1 1/2 inch broadhead out the other side of say a donkey?

Im not the worlds best shot so any help i can get from the broadhead would be great!


Benno,
I have no hunting experience with donkeys or horses, and really dont know the bone structure of these animals.

Your set up should defineately work on pigs with an 1 1/2" wide head.

If you tried some Hunter XL's on pigs, and had one in your quiver next time you had a donkey down on the ground, you could do your own penetration test and see if it would cut the mustard on live game.

Sorry I cant be more helpful, but its best I say I dont know, than bs to you.

[Sagitarius]

http://users.ncable.net.au/~woody/Tech%20Specs.html

Sagitarius, I do one called the Hunter XL.

Its not for everybody, but if you shoot gear with plenty of grunt it may be worth a look

I also have a 4 blade called the Shikari under developement, but have been frustrated with hold ups from my ferrule supplier, it should not be too far away.

I will post any news when they become available on my web site.

:cool: Ta. I haven't seen em on the shop sites, and hadn't seen yours. Looking forward to the 4 bladers, good luck getting them sorted.

70lb 27" draw enough for them?

I'll get a dozen to try if you reckon they'll fly.

[Benno]

thanks Woody - Ill give some a go. IMO donkeys are softer than a large boar - thinner skin and no mud layer so i reckon they will do the job. Will post something when i test it =)

[Sagitarius]

70 pound Marquis shooting Goldtip 75/95's, 3 x 2 in blazers, release and w/b. The broadhead is a Magnus 150 grain 4 blader but I remove the 10 grain bleeders. The heads are 2 1/2 inches x 1 1/2 inches. I make up a fieldtip the same weight as the heads and start with a bare shaft and shoot it into a target butt, make necessary adjustments and maybe do some paper tunning. When the arrow is flying relatively straight and level, I then shoot a fieldtip arrow and broadhead arrow together and make the necessary adjustments.
With the bow being tuned I found there was no difference with point of impact out to 60 yards, taking into account human error of course. When I am shooting well at 60 yards I can put the arrows in good groups and there appears to be no wind planning.
I have shot a few animals now with this set up and the wound channels are very good, there is very little to no chance of these wounds closing over, although in saying that - I haven't shot a pig with them, just billies and fallow. IMO if your shooting those rage type heads I think a heavy bow and arrow combo is necessary to obtain the penetration required.
Hows that shano!!

How come you take the bleeder blades out, Howie?

[Darkside]

Guys,

I have used Black Stumps for years, both the solid 125g and also the vented. I have also modified a few after reading an article in Traditional Bowhunter Magazine a few years ago.
This modification was to cut serrations into the back end of the broadhead, about 10-12 mm. So far this has worked well on smaller game with a lot more tissue cut than a standard straight blade. There are three different serrations used, the triangular, square edged and scalloped. So far i only use the triangular method and this is achieved by using a thread file or guns smiths checkering file(same thing). Then once the serration is in, sharpen the broadhead as normal.

[johnno]

Guys,

I have used Black Stumps for years, both the solid 125g and also the vented. I have also modified a few after reading an article in Traditional Bowhunter Magazine a few years ago.
This modification was to cut serrations into the back end of the broadhead, about 10-12 mm. So far this has worked well on smaller game with a lot more tissue cut than a standard straight blade. There are three different serrations used, the triangular, square edged and scalloped. So far i only use the triangular method and this is achieved by using a thread file or guns smiths checkering file(same thing). Then once the serration is in, sharpen the broadhead as normal.

With your serrated heads, which I assume to be similar to the magnus "buzzcut" would not the serrations impede penetration...especially on the "course" hair on a pig?

I also think that when it comes to the shot, specifically if its in the lungs, weather the animal is exhaling or inhaling at the time of the shot plays a very large part in how far they travel from the scene.

[Darkside]

Yes they are very similar to the buzzcut johnno, and from what i can understand is that a little hair is dragged in with the broadhead, but the amount the shafts slows down is not that important as it is still doing a lot of damage cutting. I have personally only shot a fox as the biggest animal so i could not vouch for the effect on bigger game, but given the chance i would like to see the difference of penetration.

[howie]

The bleeders are quite thin and after shooting a few animals, they are usually damaged. so put them aside.

[Sagitarius]

The bleeders are quite thin and after shooting a few animals, they are usually damaged. so put them aside.

Ok. Have you tried them with the bleeders, are they replaceable?

[Sagitarius]

Just because you can hit something at 50 meters don’t. IMO the most effective range for a bow is 2meters to 30 meters; the average distance for all my shots is about 12 meters. The amount of times I have heard people say “I shot him at 45-50meters and it’s was a good hit it is defiantly dead” but when I ask to see the photo they say they could not find the animal. If you can not find the animal you have know idea if its dead or just laid up wounded somewhere, you are only kidding yourself or trying to make yourself feel better for taking a shot you shouldn’t have taken.:mad:



Mate I can't say I agree with this entirely but thanks, in reply to it you've really helped me to understand what and why went wrong on my last hunt.

I've pulled down game out to 70m, never lost anything at range. The only 2 critters I have ever lost are the 2 Rusa from the last hunt at ranges of 20m & 35m. As I used exactly the same gear I can only put it down to one thing, which I will try to explain.

When I've taken longer shots I've found I have a huge field of view, so I can see from where I shoot a vista of (I estimate) up to 200m+ at 70m. So the critter can run a long way and I can still see it without moving, not that I've had anything ever go far when shot at range. Another advantage, because the animal is so far away it's much less aware of the hunters presence.

Now when we shot from up close we have a reduced vista, have to be a lot more careful to conceal ourselves, and as we cant see as far so we have to make sure we wait long enough before tracking it down.

This is where I buggered it up. I lost sight of the critter after the shoot due to the reduced vista, so I moved in (too early) to keep an eye on it and hence kept pushing it on. If this was a long shot in the same spot and with the same reaction I would have seen it run for <100m and bed down, not needing to follow it as I could still see it, I would have waited for it to expire before moving.

So the way I figure it a successful hunt and retrieval depends a lot more on our form, skills and how well we apply them. Rather that what equipment we use or where we shot from, provided that they are in spec for what we are shooting at. Hope that makes sense. ;)

[troy]

With the speed of most modern bows if our arrow weight is sufficient there should be no problem punching a huge hole through any game. How many of you guys shoot 60-70 pound and use light weight carbons and always get pass throughs on medium game like pigs and goats? I'm shooting around 80pound using 2317's at 29 1/2". I like the little tusker spirits as they weight about the same as a field point so my arrows fly the same too. I have always used 4" vanes as I believe the loss due to drag is insignificant and there is no chance of a larger broadhead 'planing' the arrow off target. I haven't yet seen this combination not make a pass through, even on the heaviest bone the broad head still managed to make it out the other side, though the arrow was still in the animal. If you are shooting at a high enough poundage, with a heavy arrow and decent vanes it won't really matter if you shoot a 'shovel' size broadhead it will punch through and leave a huge hole.
Makes me think of the heads Howard Hill came up with for elephant. They where around 6" in length but in comparison they where only about 2" wide to allow for penetration. Compare that to the heads we commonly use on the game found here and a standard length broad head would be less than 1/2" wide if you made them to have the same design principles.
I guess it comes down to shot placement as Rock Steady said. The main objective is to punch a hole in the vitals (heart/lungs) regardless of hole size if this is achieved there ain't no coming back.
Guess my response raises more questions than answers but, it's a good thread. Cheers Howie.

[howie]

Sag, did try them and the wounds are huge, without the bleeders - the wounds are still huge. Be interested in what your next gear changes will be????????

[Sagitarius]

Sag, did try them and the wounds are huge, without the bleeders - the wounds are still huge. Be interested in what your next gear changes will be????????

Can't beat huge. ;)

Mate only thing is I've ordered a dozen 160gr Outback Hunter XL from Woodie. I want the huge 1 1/2" wounds too, should also pick up my fairly short arrows weight.