Shooting Behind Wire!

[Howling Dog]

Just interested in general opinions.
I was talking to someone last night on the phone telling me about the Red Stag he had just shot, he was quite excited and proud of his achievement with bow and rightly so. Towards the end of the conversation he mentioned it had been shot in a large pen! He was reluctant to mention where but said everyone does it these days! Now this is not envy or sour grapes (I have hunted Reds twice but never got a shot off).
I know each to his own but does a double 4 shot in the wild rate higher than a double 6 behind a fence?

[Bowmancam]

Its almost like bragging about a 30dp boar shot whilst in a pig trap :roll:

I may be way off the mark but the fact you are almost guarenteed to see game takes away from the joy of covering many k's and not seeing a critter. A long fruitless walk is still a joy of bowhunting, the anticipation associated with the 'next trip' and the hope of game being there is also something to look forward to.

Killing in a cage.. not for me

Just my opinion.

Cheers , Cam

[macka]

Depends how big the enclosed area is.. If it is a couple thousand acres then I don«ÉŸt see it any different than shooting a free range one but if there is only a small area then it is a bit like shooting a pig in a trap..

Macka

[jindydiver]

Size of the "pen" makes all the diff'. The ABA has guidelines on this sort of thing don't they?

[Arra Slinger]

If i hunted just to kill i would shoot with a gun . I bowhunt for the challenge and to me there is no challenge in that even if it is a large "paddock"... just my own opinion

[outback preditor]

8)

[jindydiver]

If i hunted just to kill i would shoot with a gun . I bowhunt for the challenge and to me there is no challenge in that even if it is a large "paddock"... just my own opinion

Pretty spot on there bloke.
I kill about a dozen fallow a year for the freezer and I use a rifle for all of them, but when I am going out for the excitment or the adventure of it I use my bow. I am often within 50mtrs of the deer when I take them but I have never had an oportunity to get a shot off with the bow. It is a world of diff' between being 50mtrs away lying on your guts and getting into a position to draw the bow :wink: , just as it is worlds apart to be shooting a farm deer and a wild deer.

Hopefully I will break my drought this w/e :D Freezer is full and it is 3 days of bowhunting. :D

[humphrey]

regardless of the size of the pen, they obviously enclose the deer to make it easier for the hunter, and in my view that's cheating. :x

[jindydiver]

We were posting at the same time Pedro, I agree with everthing you have said there.

[HOOD]

if your a real hunter you study the land and maps, work were the game is ,get permision, look for sign , find the game for your self, stalk it or what ever then recover it for yoursef. the whole nine yards.
Thats what does it for me, I for one can't see the challenge in hunting a penned animal as you can back them into a corner and thats not fair chase.

But also if you go out with a mate onto his property he'd be giving you the run down on where the animales maybe and so forth so does that class as a guided hunt??????????

Hood 8)

[jimbo]

i have no problem with someone shooting behind wire if that is there cup of tea.the big problem is when they make up a cock and bull story to hide the truth. this in itself is an admission that they dont believe what the are doing is right.i know people who have shot animals behind wire because they wanted a wall decoration. black buck antelope cant be hunted free range in aust to my knowledge so if you want one of these beautiful animals on your wall it must be shot behind wire.i personally will never hunt behind wire but who am i to judge somebodyfor what they do. as long as the animal is taken in a humane manner it is no ones business but there own.

[Trophy Bowhunts]

Well now I can't stay out of this one.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pedro you make a good point on Guided Hunting...Let me clarify a few points on Guided Hunting 8) 8) 8)

Guided Hunting consists of three options for the hunter:

1. The guide Walks around the bush showing them where the game is and then leting them work out for themselves how to get to it (Most guys ask for your opinion just as they wopuld ask their mate if they were out hunting)

2. The guide takes them out and follows the hunter just pointing out occasionaly whicj direction to go for optimium chance of finding that trophy.

3. The guide takes them to the property and tells them where they are most likely to find game and then leave it up to them.

To date I have done all of the above and clients have done what they wanted to do.....You must remember the client is who we are catering for and everybodies needs are different....

Our Motto is we can guide you but we can't take that shot or stalk for you thats your job.

What you are paying for is not the kill, that is the clients responsibility what you are paying for is our expertise in knowing the country that you are entering and thus saving you many days hard slog learning about the area you are hunting....DON'T YOU SIT DOWN WITH YOUR MATES AND DISCUSS WHERE AND WHAT YOU WILL FIND IN A NEW AREA BEFORE A HUNT ESPECIALLY IF ONE OF YOU HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE.....

WE ACT AS ONE OF YOUR BEST HUNTING MATES WHO IS SHOWING YOU HIS PROPERTY FOR THE FIRST TIME...

Many people do not have the resources to go hunting every year to the same place to gain knowledge this is where we come in....

I'm sure these hunters don't think less of others who achieve great results guided or unguided....

There is nothing different between guided and unguided game we all are guided by professionals and mates alike every trip we take unless of course you hunt alone every trip....

Thanks for bringing that up Pedro....but my opion is slightly different to yours..

Good Hunting all
Mick

[outback preditor]

8)

[Barry]

Pedro,

I would have to dissagree, for you it may be cheating but you have access to lots of property and are a VERY experienced bowhunter (well compared to me certainly).

But most of us dont have that experience or the opportunity to hunt regularly on good property. I would welcome the chance to hunt with TB not to cheat but to learn from his experience.

I think we all agree on the fenced hunts though.....

[outback preditor]

8)

[Glenn]

I don't agree with hunting behind wire and to give awards for game taken behind wire is not on as far as I'm concerned. It doesen't matter how big the paddock is, the animals can be controled simply by watering and feeding routines, game animals can be fed up to produce trophy heads. At Nanango a deer farmer had a spiker one year and he was a double five the next and the year after that he was a really good double six, I doubt you would get that in the wild in that area.
If somebody wants to hunt behind wire fair enough, but as Jimbo said why make up a story about the hunt and hide the facts, I have read articles in American magazines about someones hard hunt when I knew it was behind wire, a lot of the game photos on the covers of American bowhunting magazines are of game behind wire. I don't waste my money on the horn porn magazines anymore, believe half the rubbish in them, you might just as well believe in Santa Clause...Glenn...

[jimbo]

i have taken several begining bowhunters out hunting and guided them on there first kills. does this mean they cheated or just used my experience to there advantage.i have also hunted with professional guides on several trips and by doing so have learnt alot in a short space of time is this cheating i think not.

[outback preditor]

8) :

[Freebie]

you might just as well believe in Santa :cry: what do you mean no santa,,,,,,Was really looking forward to next xmas but now i am heart broken :wink:

[PeterM]

Hey!

I think the size of the paddock does mater, the smaller closed range places I think are not really a true hunting experience but I bet most of the people here obviously haven«ÉŸt been to Water Valley the largest hunting preserve in the southern hemisphere, now this place in so called behind wire but I can tell you that you this is only to keep certain species of deer apart, like the Rusa and the Samba from inter breeding! You can drive over 100km around each of it sections that span over 500 square km«ÉŸs and not even see a fence and when you do most of the time it«ÉŸs a normal one! And the deer a not managed at all if you want a quote out of Tom Brinkworth (the owner) he lets nature take it own course, and the animals there are not helped or hindered in anyway. It«ÉŸs easy to judge when you haven«ÉŸt been on and a guided hunt or even a guided hunt on water valley say.

Also if you think the quality of game taken on closed range is better because of special treatment that«ÉŸs not the case it better because the blood line«ÉŸs are better, you will never take an awesome red stag out of Brisbane valley cause the blood lines are poor at best from a weak starting point and also hunter exploitation the fact is I think it all about the quality of game taken, and I«ÉŸve taken quality game both methods and love each and the experiences I«ÉŸve had, but that«ÉŸs my opinion!

And as far as guided hunts as cheating what crap, I«ÉŸd like to see all the millionaires here go for a hunt over seas or here and find all the best place«ÉŸs and the highest quality animals to hunt in just one week, not possible! You might as well just move there, as we all know local knowledge is always best!

See ya Pete.

[ricochet]

what do you mean no santa,,,,,,Was really looking forward to next xmas but now i am heart broken



Why am i always the last to know



Does anyone know the name of a good therapist


Gee Freebie you have been kept in the dark,you must get out more, :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Glenn]

Sorry about spoiling the Santa myth, and you will really hate me now by it's really your Mum and Dad who drink the cordial and eat the biscuts you left under the tree for Santa to eat, sorry...Glenn...

[HOOD]

it's really your Mum and Dad who drink the cordial and eat the biscuts you left under the tree for Santa to eat, sorry...Glenn...

Now I know why dad always insisted on us putting a beer or two or scotch with metwherst and cheese. :evil:

Well I guess it's my responsability to keep the tradition going when our little one comes along in a couple of months. :P

Hood 8)

[outback preditor]

8)

[Glenn]

Good one, shoot the fat bastard and eat the deer.

[outback preditor]

he learnt the lay of the land, learnt the routine, awaited in ambush, then nailed his quarry. now thats huntin. :lol:

[Freebie]

ROFL.....You guys are just plain mean :lol:

[Pitty]

I was going to post about this topic at the beginning of the week but wasn't quite game enough for fear of being shouted down, but most of the hunters here seem to be 'hunters' and not 'shooters'

Hunting behind wire in my opinion is just plain cruel regardless of the size of pen or 1000 acre paddock, the animal still cannot escape.
For me the thrill of the hunt is going out there using my skills and hoping that their is a throphy in my hunting area, if u know thatr their ia an animal in your area and it can't escape, wheres the excitement of the unknown.

The main thing that bothers me about guided hunts is when u see Dr such and such who has a squillion dollars in the bank jet set about the countryside and have guides do all the hard work and simply walk in with a cannon and drop an animal and then head out again.

I think guided bow hunts would be different though as it still takes a lot of skill on the hunters part to complete the stalk.

I don't score any of my trophies as I am not doing it to compete with any 1.

I am a very inexperienced bow hunter, although very experienced as a rifle hunter and with dogs, so my opinion probably doesn't really bear much weight, but cheque book hunters and game farms really get under my skin.
JMO

Respect for the Quarry

[HOOD]

This reminds me of the thread that was on the old site about the lion that was shot by some very stoopid hunters. remember that one guys.

Hood 8)

[frogman]

The original post asked if does a double 4 taken in the wild rate higher than a double 6 behind a fence.This topic was discussed the outher night at our red deer camp with everyone sharing the same veiw,this being bush stags do rate higher.Points to this being
1 time spent finding the game
2 the terrain has to be considered
3the enviromental effects such as drought vs good seasons
4and then lucky enough to get close enough for a shot.
Compare this to a game park
1: you know the game is their and are told what areas they are in?
2:Generally the terrain is much more user friendly(some sort of improvements to it)glassing made easier and vehicle access.
3:Enviromentaly the game is looked after in times of hardship (closer contact with man) also they may be fed high quality tucker to improve antler growth.
4:AS for luck well chances are better as game is more use to interaction with man.


THis debate could could go on for ever and in the end it is all up to the individual.But i do ask my self this(if i shot a game park stag) could i sit around deer camp with my mates talking about good heads and not feel some guilt??????? :roll:

[Glenn]

I just can't ever see what people would ever get out of hunting game behind wire. I know a bowhunter from the States that went to Water Valley four years ago and shot a record red stag, a record rusa and a huge fallow all on a five day hunt, make your own mind up.
you will never take an awesome red stag out of Brisbane valley cause the blood lines are poor at best from a weak starting point
Peter don't be too quick to judge the Brisbane Valley herd. Some of the best reds taken over the years have come from the Brisbane Valley. I saw a red stag that was shot 40 years ago now in the Nanango area that was an evn double 8. Two years ago a stag was shot in the Mary Valley that had antlers 45 inches long and a spread of 41 inches, some not bad blood lines there I would say. There have been some fantastic heads come out of these areas it's just that a lot of them will never be recorded. These wild deer are decendents of some of the best blood lines around, if they were managed properly they would bounce back again, because it's poaching and trophy hunters that did knock them around over the years.
I think the comments about guided hunts are very tough, it's alright when you have hunting access but if you don't guided hunts a are the way to go and provide a good service to people who might never get out on a hunt or gives you access to country that you might never get be able to get into. ....Glenn...

[Arra Slinger]

I also think the stuff about guided hunts is a bit harsh.I have never been on a guided hunt but now live in perth were there is very little game to hunt IE no pigs (of size) and no deer. After living in north west QLD for most of my life then coming over here it is a bit of a down step...(just ask Adam) so for that matter i would be better off to pay for a guided hunt over there! (for pigs and deer)

At the end of the day it is the inderviduals own situation that "they" have to take into consideration IE they might have a family business that takes up 99% of there time and they only get 1 holiday a year ect ect. so they dont have time to do all the things needed to gain access to propertys then get out there to find the game is just not there or not of quality

So dont think that all people that go on guided hunts are not as good as you or are cheats because there situation does not allow them the same opportunities as some of us :wink: :wink:

[Scott]

Well I think it all depends on the size of the block. I have a good mate with a 2,500 acres behind wire and believe me the fallow are very hard to hunt.
As far as guided hunts. I am going on my first one near the end of the year with TB, I am really looking forward to it as I have never been in that part of Aus. No problem with it from here! Personal choice, thats all.

[jason]

I agree on the fenced in game it is not for me but pedro you have got this hole guiding thing wrong. I have been on 3 guided hunts shot game with bill and hunted on my own and shot game up there. The 2 stags i got bill stalked in behind me with the camera and as anyone who has hunted knows it is a lot easier on your own rather than with 2 people. At about 40m bill stayed put to film it and i finished he last 10-20 on my own. 1 stag bill spotted the other i did, but with your way of thinking those 2 stags are not worth a pinch of sh*t. What a load of crap when you have been on a guided hunt you can offer a opinion at the moment you are just assuming. bill is the same as mick from trophy bowhunts i gather from his post he will talk you through it but you have to take the shot or he just comes and films and shows you where the game is likely to be. It is no different to getting to the property and asking the owner were and what he has seen around the last couple of days just you have someone taking you there who has hunted the place for a long time. You are lucky pedro to have the time and resources to get to hunt all the time but i do not and like to take good game now rather than just waste a weekend hunting anything so i will always go guided when i can afford it unless i win lotto then i will buy my own place.

[ricochet]

I have lost some very good hunting properties over the past few years,have tried to gain access on some new places without luck,should have been more active years ago keeping options open with other places to hunt,so for people with access to good hunting properties it may seem wrong (for a better word) to try a guided hunt but not every one is blessed with access or living close to some good hunting areas,where you can just duck out for a quick hunt after work,As arra said family and work (and where you may reside)may take up all your time,so to these people it may be worth taking a guided hunt for that week or two a year or so,so you hunters with access to great hunting properties/places cherish these at all times as you can lose access very quckly.I am still putting in some time to gain access to others hunting spots,which is harder now than when i first started hunting those many years ago.I can see both sides of the argument on this subject,but it is up to the individual as to what he /she wants out of the hunt,I for one would not want to claim a record deer etc with a animal taken behind wire.

[Piggy]

I recently went on a guided hunt with 4 mates and 1 guide 99% of all game shot (pigs and Deer) were done without the guide present.
We felt we were primarily paying for the access to the property and its facilities. But i would also like to say we all went out with the guide on numerous occasions and learnt a lot from his experience.
I feel guided hunts for me are to be treated as learning experience on how to improve my hunting and if any game is taken then that is a bonus (have only been on 1 guided hunt)

[outback preditor]

8)

[PeterM]

Hey!

If any of you get the chance to go to Water Valley id go, and all would become clear, it«ÉŸs not like shooting deer in a small paddock the deer can escape and trust me there is a huge population outside it so called fences, but I«ÉŸm not going try to explain it but until you go there you will not see the point I«ÉŸm trying to make.

Anyway as to the yank shooting awesome trophies in one week, that«ÉŸs not because there stuck in a small pen waiting to be shot, it because the quality of the all the deer at Water valley is second to none in Aus, and there is plenty of the them!

Trust me if anybody get«ÉŸs to go, GO!!!

If you really want to hang **** on the pen shot deer, hormone fed, cheque book hunting go to the Glen Roy Loge site and check out the monsters you can shoot if your wallet is thick enough, now this place in shooting big fish in a barrel!

See Ya Pete.

[Sparra]

Where is Water Valley????

[Axe]

Like to give my 2 cents worth on a few of the issues mentioned in this thread: Behind wire - NEVER. Guided hunts -no problem with (have never had one myself). Close shot -being a trad hunter , stalking skills are what it is about to me. I do believe that there is too much emphasis placed on records, they are no harder to kill than non record game, just harder to find most of the time.
Took a 14 point South Coast Red last April @ 29yds, (prefer to get closer but lack of cover made the decision) was lookin' for hind for freezer, just happened to be in the right place at the right time, whilst pleased, no greater achievement than many other animals taken :D

[Sparra]

Gaday Axe...Where in NSW are you?????

[Axe]

Sparra,
Central West - originally from Lake Illawarra.
PS That Stag "lived" not far from you! :P

[ricochet]

Sparra- Watervalley in a game farm in South Australia,very big property.

Rick

[Sparra]

Hey Axe...A bit more of a hint would be good :lol: :lol:

[Axe]

Well Sparra, if you look at the Big Tree, (it's on the way to Canberra)
go past it, turn left & be vewy,vewy quiet you might see his brother. 8)

[maxy]

Geeez its all happening in here!!. First of all i'll say that i have never hunted 'behind the wire' and probably never will. But can see why some people would as massive reds and fallow are awesome sights - running around or on the wall.
I have a bit of a spin on the whole behind wire thing. How many places do you hunt where the game is concentrated around a certain area in the landscape, be it a large patch of bush in the middle of open country or maybe a swamp up north. You know that is where the game will be and it doesnt matter how hard you chase them, they will never stray far from that feature. Now wack a big fence up around say 5000 acres surrounding the bush or swamp. Will this make the game easier to shoot with a bow? i dont think so. Will many of these animals ever see the fence? - probably not.
This may be an extreme example, but from what i can gather by talking to PeteM about Water Valley, it might be pretty close to the situation. If they are pen bread stock enclosed in a 500 acre pen then i disagree with shooting them 100%, its just a bit harsh to assume that all 'enclosed range' game are taken in conditions like this

Maxy

[PeterM]

Hey!

Maxy's right on this one, and there can points made by both side«ÉŸs that could go on forever but I will say this if you haven«ÉŸt been you cant judge, you can only form an opinion which is every one right but an accurate judgment can only been made if you have been yourself!

See ya Pete.

[Warlocke]

I have been hunting Deer for a while now, and had an opportunity to be on a property with three large herds.

After hunting them for a while I noticed that, even though they can leave their main areas, they never do.

When being busted on a stalk, close to their self imposed boundaries, they will use available cover to double back to their comfort zone rather than move to a strange area.

No amount of fencing will change this.

I have seen and been told about Deer jumping over 2 meters to clear a fence or obstacle as if it didn't exist.

Most Deer proof fences are under this height so they are comfortable behind this barrier whether it existed or not.

I won't hunt a fenced area that is for breeding purposes, like commercial Deer farms, but I would accept a guided hunt and hunt on 5,000 acre plus farms as most Deer adopt a range of about 2,000 acres.

Even the batchelor groups rarely go outside of this area out of the Rut.

If I were to invite someone on a hunt with me, I would think it extremely rude if I did not use my local knowlege to assist my guest in a successful hunt.

I have the feeling most of the hunters on this forum feel the same.

[HOOD]

If I were to invite someone on a hunt with me, I would think it extremely rude if I did not use my local knowlege to assist my guest in a successful hunt.

I agree completely with you, "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy.

And yes a 5000 acre place is a huge range and not like the percieved couple of acre pen some assume they are in, I have been guilty of this mode of thinking.

Hood 8)

[Trophy Bowhunts]

I believe the definition of game behind wire is an area that under normal circumstances would restrict an animal from there normal natural state of well being and roam area....

But I also believe game that is supported by human intervention is not in a wild state....Be it behind wire or not....Many Many areas fall into this catagory so there is a very fine line between these types of animals.

We could debate this for ever...AND GET NOWHERE....

What one does is not always somebody else's cup to tea.

A trophy or Record or anything is in the eye of the beholder....

And as far as I'm am concerned a young boy or girls first Rabbit is as good as anybodies 12 point stag. You still get the same thrill and you bragg about it to your mates the same way.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So in closing do what is right for you but remember when claiming that record you need to ask yourself was it fair to the animal taken...if so go for it.....

Mick