View Full Version : NSW Game Council stuff.
tracker
12-05-05, 10:12 AM
I read in the paper on the weekend that the NSW gov't are about to pass a new law or an addition to the game council act that will give the game council all the money from any fines levied against unlicensed/unlawful firearm users to make the council self funding. I thought that was interesting.
Also, me and a mate just got onto a large property near home and the landholder asked if we had a "G" licence. He has pigs not deer. He knew about them <everybody we speak to out there does> and wanted us to have them for the insurance not the actual license. I was chatting about this with coach and he pointed out that you have insurance if you are in the ABA and have a BPC. The ABA aren't writing to all the landholder's telling them about it though are they? The Game Council obviously is.
Thought someone might be interested. :P :wink: :roll:
Mick.
Very interesting indeed (especially the part about the pig property... so when we catching up :lol: )
jindydiver
12-05-05, 02:39 PM
Yes guys, the GC is very actively promoting the insurance and farmers I have talk with about the GC say that it is mentioned frequently in any disscussion with them.
Call me cynical if you like, but I don't see any reason to trust in an organization that has such power over our activities but can't bring itself to disscuss our concerns.
jindydiver
12-05-05, 08:08 PM
Your impression is close to the mark there Coach.
The game councils main thrust at the moment is to use any means possible (short of real public discourse) to increase compliance with the new laws. The farmer Tracker refers to is sure to have got a letter (or a phone call) from the GC telling him all about the insurance but failing to explain the lack of any legal requirement to have the license to hunt pigs.
I have been given a copy of e-mail correspondence between the owner of a farm where I shoot and the GC.
This fellow is very concerned about the state forest next door being opened to hunting as his property shares two boundaries with the forest and he gets enough people hunting his stock as it is.
I will not print the letters here as they were given to me for my info only, as the farmer was discussing my thoughts on the GC with me, but to give you an idea of the language
Ï÷, these responsible hunters will force out the illegal hunters who tend to do the wrong thing by the farmers.Ó
The farmer wants no hunters in the forest next door, his house is only 300mtrs from the forest and he already has people shooting through his fences. Once the forest is opened up to hunters he expects that the incidents will increase as there will be more blokes hunting there and (all things being equal) that means there will be more blokes willing to shoot through the fence.
The GC claim that because the hunters will have completed a training course their moral fibre will have strengthened. His problem, and I agree, is that people will do the course and will then have the access and the course will be seen by them as nothing more than a means to an end.
As I have said before, this thing needs wide support for it to have any real effect on hunting attitudes, and that wide support will not be forthcoming while the GC forces new laws on us and refuses to give real answers to important questions.
rinaldo
12-05-05, 10:17 PM
Also, me and a mate just got onto a large property near home and the landholder asked if we had a "G" licence. He has pigs not deer. He knew about them <everybody we speak to out there does> and wanted us to have them for the insurance not the actual license. I was chatting about this with coach and he pointed out that you have insurance if you are in the ABA and have a BPC. The ABA aren't writing to all the landholder's telling them about it though are they? The Game Council obviously is.
You can also get the paper work from the GC to prove they have insurance :lol:
Call me cynical if you like, but I don't see any reason to trust in an organization that has such power over our activities but can't bring itself to disscuss our concerns.
What power may that be? Give us an example.
jindydiver
12-05-05, 10:36 PM
Call me cynical if you like, but I don't see any reason to trust in an organization that has such power over our activities but can't bring itself to disscuss our concerns.
What power may that be? Give us an example.
For a start, the GC has declared closed seasons on animals that are feral to Australia.
Animal species that you and I have hunted in the past, without restriction, and that other parties are still actively working to destroy are now off limits to hunters for almost half the year.
Good enough example for you Rinaldo?
rinaldo
12-05-05, 11:02 PM
For a start, the GC has declared closed seasons on animals that are feral to Australia.
Animal species that you and I have hunted in the past, without restriction, and that other parties are still actively working to destroy are now off limits to hunters for almost half the year.
What feral animals now have closed seasons?
Carl_SlayR
12-05-05, 11:35 PM
I think he's talking about deer Rin, animals that are pests and people have previously hunted all year round ......
Yeah fella's...but now in there wisdom the game council has declared deer as a prime game animal and no longer a feral species...
rinaldo
13-05-05, 04:55 PM
I rang the GC and asked about the closed season on deer. The closed deer season was not the idea of the GC it was a veterinary body. Closed season only applies to 3 of the species which have a clearly defined breeding season, the Europen deer and Hogg. The Asiatic deer do not have a clearly defined breeding season therefore there is no closed season for them.
The reason for the closed season on the European is because they tend to hide their fawns and then go back for them, so they dont want the hinds shot in this period and have the fawns starve to death. I hope I have got this this right as I am reciting from memory.
If you look in there web site there are quite a few that have a closed season...only to us hunters...anyone else..ie..pro's and property owners can shoot them at will.....
rinaldo
13-05-05, 05:49 PM
If you look in there web site there are quite a few that have a closed season...only to us hunters...anyone else..ie..pro's and property owners can shoot them at will....
In fishing you have bag limits unless you are a pro... same deal. Are we cullers or hunters?
ricochet
13-05-05, 05:57 PM
The reason for the closed season on the European is because they tend to hide their fawns and then go back for them, so they dont want the hinds shot in this period and have the fawns starve to death
Rin- if this is what you were told by the GC, why then have they
If you look in there web site there are quite a few that have a closed season...only to us hunters...anyone else..ie..pro's and property owners can shoot them at will.....
if this is the case what is now stopping the does being shot by cullers and farmers at will, the fawns will certainly starve.So where is the reasoning behind what you were told.
Rick
jindydiver
13-05-05, 08:21 PM
The reason for the closed season on the European is because they tend to hide their fawns and then go back for them, so they dont want the hinds shot in this period and have the fawns starve to death
Rin- if this is what you were told by the GC, why then have they
If you look in there web site there are quite a few that have a closed season...only to us hunters...anyone else..ie..pro's and property owners can shoot them at will.....
if this is the case what is now stopping the does being shot by cullers and farmers at will, the fawns will certainly starve.So where is the reasoning behind what you were told.
Rick
I have been trying to get across to others the obvious contradiction there, and I feel better now that I see I am not the only one that see it. :wink:
Heard on the ABC radio the other day that the chief executive has been fired,a wardon has quit because of his sacking and the GC will be out of funds by the end of next month....I don't know how true this is but just thought I'd share the news....
Sparra
jindydiver
22-09-05, 07:58 AM
Very interesting developments
http://orange.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&category=general%20news&story_id=421297&y=2005&m=9
Call me cynical if you like, but I don't see any reason to trust in an organization that has such power over our activities but can't bring itself to disscuss our concerns.
Why would they want to discuss it Mick, they have their "lap dogs" lauding their excellence. Policy excellence such as.....shoot what/when you like if you're a pro, forget the offspring, they'll be ok, but don't shoot as hunter, unless you pay us & we say you can, because the offspring will suffer, what a double standardised joke this GC is!
jindydiver
22-09-05, 08:23 AM
I hunt a property that is a working deer farm and it has a state forest adjacent. There are of course deer in that forest, and poachers to go with them. The owner of the farm asked these guys 4 months ago how they are going to stop people shooting deer through the fence. Their reply is that they can*t. They are more than willing to promote this forest as a destination for deer hunters but they take no responsibility. He then asked if they can keep records of the people allowed access to the forest to hunt under the R licence so that if anything untoward happened there would at least be an avenue of investigation open. He was dismissed with some **** about how that would be too hard to administer. Then low and behold, last months newsletter from the GC tells us that you must apply online for your permit to hunt in a particular forest and you will be issued a permit for a set area and time frame. Sure sounds to me like it would be dead easy to do what was asked of them (and they are in fact doing it) but they still fob the farmer off with bull****. I suspect the issue is that this farmer, and his neighbours, aren*t sucked in by the scare campaigns of the GC and so are ìout of the loop" so to speak. The GC has built up a large pocket of resentment within the hunters and farmers of NSW in a short time and has a lot of work ahead of it to reverse their fortunes.
And yes, what happens if the whole thing folds? We will find ourselves with a whole new regulatory regime and none of the benefits that were supposed to flow from those regulations. When all those ****heads in the state parliament started to make amendments to the original legislation it should have been pulled till the timing was better, instead of being passed with all the contradictions and making a joke of the current situation.
Call me cynical if you like, but I don't see any reason to trust in an organization that has such power over our activities but can't bring itself to disscuss our concerns.
Why would they want to discuss it Mick, they have their "lap dogs" lauding their excellence. Policy excellence such as.....shoot what/when you like if you're a pro, forget the offspring, they'll be ok, but don't shoot as hunter, unless you pay us & we say you can, because the offspring will suffer, what a double standardised joke this GC is!
I assume the term "Pro" is assigned to someone who hunts game for a living. That is their job.? If so, then why should someone who's living comes from hunting game, be restricted to being able to earn income during particular seasons.
Now i also assume that a "Pro" hunter would be someone with intimate knowledge of all the animals he hunts - it's his job too. Therefore he would know which type of Deer, during which seasons, he can and or should harvest. It would be against his best interests to hunt a species when the outcome would mean both it and it's offspring were lost.
Have i missunderstood the concept of a "Pro" hunter?
on another note, there's clearly resentment between most people on here and the NSW Game Council. Why is that? I don't understand the issues obviously - can someone bring me up to speed?
[quote="CMB50"
Now i also assume that a "Pro" hunter would be someone with intimate knowledge of all the animals he hunts - it's his job too. Therefore he would know which type of Deer, during which seasons, he can and or should harvest. It would be against his best interests to hunt a species when the outcome would mean both it and it's offspring were lost.
quote]
Don't think what the Pro thinks is the issue, it ain't the pro hunter that's being vilified here, it's the double standard that the GC employs by using the breeding season as reason to stop recreational hunting of certain species, yet allows others to bypass that same reasoning.
However, to assume that Pros will necessarily be prudent in what they shoot assumes that money has no influence in their mind set.
I speak from experience, the more they harvest the more money they make, and only if the numbers / species they can take is strictly controlled the thought of saving some for tomorrow runs a distant second to what can be made today.
As far as the resentment...... we the public scream for transparency from our politicians, our corporate bodies etc, so why wouldn't one resent a bunch of gov funded, self ordained "experts" dictate the rules, feather their own nests, but refuse to address the people they are supposed to be representing, when it comes to addressing/discussing their concerns? From where I stand resentment doesn't cover it.
It comes down to being reglated Cam ere's clearly resentment between most people on here and the NSW Game Council. Why is that?
How would you like to be told that you can only shoot at certain times , at targets , and be charged for it ?
That'd be like joining nearly any Target Archery Club. Shooting hours are between 9am - 4pm Monday to Friday, 11am - 6pm Saturday and 7am - 3pm Sunday. Except the 3rd Saturday of the month in which the local Dog obedience school gets use of the grounds.....
They started it and now they cant manage it ,IE asking for more funds .
The whole thing stank of CONTROL from the first mention of it . Now they cant even control their own affairs :shock: How are they to control us ?
Geez there is so much more I could rave about , but I hate typing :roll:
In general MOST hunters I have spoken to , resent this GC ,, reason ? 'Cause they dont want to be told when and where they can hunt , just as you would resent if told ,, " you can shoot 3D on Monday the 4th on September, but not on Monday the 2nd of October " :wink:
Can you see where I'm coming from ? Or am I typing crap ?
As for the Pro thing , geez :roll: another time maybe
I can fully appreciate the feeling of resentment toward a person or Authoritive Body trying to control everything you do - just like being back in high school. But I don't think that will suffice as a reason for disliking them.
I see the establishment of the game council as recognition by the NSW government that hunting is a valuable and vital way of controlling feral species, protecting native wildlife from these feral's and as hunting being a more popular past-time (or addiction as some here would say) they most people would like to believe.
The world is becoming a user-pays society. It sucks, but it's a fact. Nearly every hobby/sport now has some kind of fee or cost. Fishing, Archery, etc. ****, you've even got to pay an entry fee to a park attendant to go Skiing. However the money collected is used for the good of the Fishermen, Archers and Skiers to establish infrastructure, guidlines to develop and protect the future of the sport, and ensure the best interests of all parties are protected in the best way possible.
Don't think what the Pro thinks is the issue, it ain't the pro hunter that's being vilified here, it's the double standard that the GC employs by using the breeding season as reason to stop recreational hunting of certain species, yet allows others to bypass that same reasoning.
Without scrolling back through the thread, i think I recall the other two parties as being: Farmers and Pro Hunters??
The pro hunter I mentioned in my previous post so won't go back over it.
The Farmer on the other hand, well, perhaps the ruling is to protect Farmers stock and for Humane reasons, that they are not restricted to certain seasons.
However, to assume that Pros will necessarily be prudent in what they shoot assumes that money has no influence in their mind set.
I speak from experience, the more they harvest the more money they make, and only if the numbers / species they can take is strictly controlled the thought of saving some for tomorrow runs a distant second to what can be made today.
Ok, here's the thing. Say I'm a Pro Hunter (I'm not, but let's pretend) and i recklessly went hunting at every opportunity, taking no regard for what game I am harvesting, it's age or it's breed and only considered my wallet.
Firstly, I don't deserve (and perhaps would never have received) my Pro Hunter status/licence. I'm not a hunter - just a murderer.
Secondly, the long term damage i would be doing to future Game numbers would be catastrophic. I would be literally destroying any future work and income, just for short term cash. It doesn't make sense.
As far as the resentment...... we the public scream for transparency from our politicians, our corporate bodies etc, so why should a bunch of gov funded, self ordained "experts" dictate the rules, feather their own nests, but refuse to address the people they are supposed to be representing, when it comes to addressing/discussing their concerns. From where I stand resentment doesn't cover it.
Perhaps what I wrote in my reply to Coach would cover my thoughts here. That said, I agree with a fair bit of what you are saying. Government departments need to, at the very least, listen to the request and opinions of the people they serve. There also needs to be a certain amount of transperancy - but there must also be a certain amount of trust in them too.
We need to remember that the people filling these jobs are just like you and I. I know i don't go to work everyday contemplating the various ways I could anger and inconvenience the customers of the company I work for, i don't think anyone on here does and I seriously doubt that people working for government departments do either.
JMHO
CMB50 Wrote:
Ok, here's the thing. Say I'm a Pro Hunter (I'm not, but let's pretend) and i recklessly went hunting at every opportunity, taking no regard for what game I am harvesting, it's age or it's breed and only considered my wallet.
Firstly, I don't deserve (and perhaps would never have received) my Pro Hunter status/licence. I'm not a hunter - just a murderer.
Secondly, the long term damage i would be doing to future Game numbers would be catastrophic. I would be literally destroying any future work and income, just for short term cash. It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense, no argument, but it happens all the time, because much of their work is based on short term employment, as I said, I speak from experience (not as pro)
CMB50 Wrote:
We need to remember that the people filling these jobs are just like you and I. I know i don't go to work everyday contemplating the various ways I could anger and inconvenience the customers of the company I work for, i don't think anyone on here does and I seriously doubt that people working for government departments do either
I don't know what you do or who you work for, but I have worked for government bodies for many years. Just like you & I, well...in a lot of cases only because they are human, not because they take into consideration our interests or values & therefore don't really care whether they inconvenience anyone or not.
Whilst I respect your opinion, you mentioned the word trust, I believe the word trust used in the same conversation as governments or bodies such as the GC, bodies that constantly spruke about what they do is for our own good, are IMO, to say the least, a poor & irrelevant combination
For one that was go'n to stay out of this debate, I need to zip it :)
Whilst I respect your opinion, you mentioned the word trust, I believe the word trust used in the same conversation as governments or bodies such as the GC, bodies that constantly spruke about what they do is for our own good, are IMO, to say the least, a poor & irrelevant combination
Good Point. :oops: :D
jindydiver
23-09-05, 08:01 AM
The world is becoming a user-pays society. It sucks, but it's a fact. Nearly every hobby/sport now has some kind of fee or cost. Fishing, Archery, etc. ****, you've even got to pay an entry fee to a park attendant to go Skiing. However the money collected is used for the good of the Fishermen, Archers and Skiers to establish infrastructure, guidlines to develop and protect the future of the sport, and ensure the best interests of all parties are protected in the best way possible.
This is no argument in favour of the Game council at all. Deer hunters in NSW were not dipping into the public purse at all before the legislation was introduced, and need not be now.
There is no infrastructure that needs to be maintained or established.
The future of the sport ( continuing on the theme of the closed seasons, means in this case the continuing numbers of game animals to be taken) does not need protecting in any way. Deer numbers (and their range) have increased every year despite the best efforts of all parties (pro-shooters, farmers, hunters and NPWS cull programs all included) and hunters do not need to pay for a government department to now restrict their activities, whatever the reason.
And yes, the best interests of ALL parties are being looked after here. This legislation was amended over 100 times to take into account the concerns and beliefs of all the competing parties within the government, including the greens and animal libbers, and so what we have here is the hunters paying for a mechanism to restrict their activities so that the ìbest interests of all parties are protectedî whether or not it is in the best interest of the hunters or not. Any benefits to the hunters of NSW coming from this legislation are yet to materialise. We receive nothing tangible in return for our paying for a permit, just some dream of our activity being somehow more acceptable to the public (and gov* ) of NSW.
Finally, it must be remembered here that we are talking about FERAL animals here ( and at that, feral animals in no need of any form of protection). That the hunters of NSW (and yes the pro-shooters also) must pay to do their bit in removing them (especially so on private land) while government agencies are actively culling the very same animals shows us this is nothing more than a tax on our activities.
If you want to find out more about what the people on this website think about the GC, the search function is your friend.
http://www.thebowhuntersgroupofaustralia.com/search.php
Jindy Wrote
we are talking about FERAL animals here ( and at that, feral animals in no need of any form of protection).
Hmmmm....Now Prime game animals :wink: :wink: :wink:
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