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12-11-06, 09:00 PM
Fellas

Boy I shot some arrows this weekend :shock:

In the past week or so I have stripped my Trykon back to clean the dirt and dust of a years hunting out of it , I coincided the activity with the trial of a variety of vane types and a Carolina deluxe whisker biscuit , once it was re assembled.

I love tinkering with my compound to squeeze the most out of it , A long time ago I settled on my arrow shaft brand and model I shoot Beman ICS-400 Camo shafts after bare shafting them and have normally shot 3 x 5 " duravanes on a Blitzenburger hard Right wing helical.

As I had been testing Vane types I had six set up with 3x5" Duravanes , six set up wit 3x 2.5" Blazer vanes , six with 3 x 4" standard Duravanes
a further six with 4" low profile Duravanes. I used the same Blitzenburger helical clamp on each of the Vane types.

I was most interested to test the claims made on which had the most control capacity over an arrow.

After fundamental tuning that had all vane types grouping tightly (nock splitting vane ripping) together with 125g field points , I started the testing with broad heads.

Of course its normal to expect that modifications are to be made to the arrow rest and potentially the nock point once broad heads are in place and any difference in the point of impact is observed (Can I just add this is the point where many move their sights to the point of impact of broad heads and consider their bow tuned) Its not !

After attaching two bladed broad heads (Magnus Stingers) I shot the first group of three arrows at a double row of 4 20mm dots from 20 metres.

The first group was with 5" standard Duravanes they were at perfect height 3 inches to the left.

The second group was with 4" standard Duravanes they were at perfect height and grouped 4 inches to the left.

The third group was with 2.5 inch Blazer vanes and grouped as the 5'' Duravanes did at the same height and 3 inches to the left.

The fourth was with the low profile Duravane again they were the perfect height but these landed together 4.5 / 5 inches to the left.

After the groups were fired I placed a sheet of butchers paper a metre in front of the target on posts and shot one of each through to the target , I had perfect point to Fletch patterns (or at least nothing detectable in paper tuning signs)

I rested for an hour or so while I had lunch and a drink then shot the second row of dots from the same distance with identical results.

Obviously this showed that the arrow rest had to be moved to the right in order to bring the shots to centre and that 2.5 inch Blazers and 5 inch standard Duravanes have the same controlling influence (still shocks me , but good on them).

Now what interested me was that had I not had the other vane types to compare I would have moved the rest to the right a couple of mm until the 5" standard Duravanes hit centre and called it tuned and it would have been close (but hey !! a job done well is a job well done) it took a further adjustment to the right of almost the same amount to bring the low profile vanes to centre and once done all Vane types landed one after the other on top of each other.

At this point field points and two bladed heads landed into the same groups and expensively sometimes the same spot.

I ended up testing eight 125g broad head types after the tune was complete.

Magnus Stingers
Outback Supremes
Outback Hunters
Tusker Spirits
Bone breakers
Muzzy 3 blade
NAP Thunderheads (three bladed)
First Cut

Each flew and landed in great groups together regardless of vane types.
I took all the arrows out to where I could shoot at 50m and the results were all the same , with one slight difference the low profile and Blazer vanes were consistently a little higher on the target 2-3 inches (less drag)

By being able to view the same arrow and broad head combination shot with varying levels of vane correction I was able to better detect the necessity for optimal tune and make the changes.

And additionally prove to myself that when a bow is tuned down to the wire as you can do these days you can shoot a wide range at front and back.

Beyond that you may wonder "why worry about such small increments of value"

It matters most when you are drawn down on that animal , regardless of breed or trophy potential , your in a right to left cross breeze your on one knee your heart is pounding your not at 20m your at 37m and your waiting for that perfect shot angle to release the perfect arrow.

What did I learn that I didn't know prior ?

The Key point.

By being able to view the same arrow and broad head combination shot with varying levels of vane correction I was able to better detect the necessity for optimal tune and make the changes.

You cant really (safely) bare shaft an arrow with a broad head ,but by shooting one with marginal , or at least less than normal steering capacity in terms of its fletching will act as a tell tale , with great value. I now consider a half dozen arrows fletched with low profile vanes a great tuning asset.

Paper tuning will not show you this slight a correction but it is still there to be made.

A Carolina Whisker Biscuit arrow rest will without problem shoot the Vanes mentioned above without negative effect on the vane and with breathtaking accuracy shot after shot.

The Bow has to my mind never been more precisely tuned , its performance from 10 to 50 is a joy to watch.

Tune with confidence = Hunt with confidence

Some may be interested.
:D

Simon.

No eye deer
13-11-06, 05:16 AM
Excellent post. Well done. I am going to come back to this one.

Thanks,
Mark

Antarcher
13-11-06, 07:02 AM
That was excellent stuff Steely. i have always found that the more i practice and the more I nail the bullseye, my confidence when out hunting soars too. Nothing feels better than knowing you are going tohit somethign once you are in range. Top post and excellent tips.

XTfreak
13-11-06, 07:31 AM
Steely
Great post!! Thankyou very much for doing all that (hard) work. I learned a couple things from it.
Thanks again,
Bill

rory
13-11-06, 07:41 AM
So Steely, are you saying that when you found that to get the 5" duravanes hitting dead centre you would 'normally' have moved the rest 2.5mm to the right, that you really need to move it 5mm?

For those of us who may not use all fletch types during bow/arrow tuning, is it therefore a good idea to move a rest beyond where it 'should' go to see if this makes for good groups?

Top post mate 8)

Warlocke
13-11-06, 09:04 AM
Steely,

Great to see reinforcement of the importance of proper bow tuning.

People come to this site for this information.

Well done.

13-11-06, 09:34 AM
Rory

To answer your question without sounding wishywashy on the answer its very worth spending that little extra time to ensure things are how they would appear and get the best for your self and your game.

I quite stumbled onto this opportunity to detect the difference I would have normally stopped at paper tuning for the star pattern, you may have heard from friends or around the club that this point lands there and that broad head lands here and I shoot this brand or that because they fly best out of their bow.

The absolute 100% truth is that if your arrows are the right spine for your bow and its TUNED to the limit you will shoot every point of the same weight to the same spot without exception , trust me if your bow wont do this there is still some work you can do.

It drives most guys nuts , but I love it , remember when you get down to the end its mm we are talking about but it makes inches of difference and the result is well and truly worth every second of your time.

They arnt Toys but the sure are fun to play with :wink:

rory
13-11-06, 10:42 AM
Absolutely Steely, I enjoy tinkering too, and to get your set-up shooting at it's best will make all the difference at full draw on that stag :D

jpbon
13-11-06, 12:35 PM
Absolutely brilliant post Steely!! I will definitely be coming back to this.

warnie
13-11-06, 05:13 PM
Thanks for that post, i have already been back to it a couple of times to clarify my understanding of different points, interesting, thanks. J.W

Antarcher
14-11-06, 05:42 AM
Steely, since you are all set for it, have you tried to see which vane combination has the best steering values in a cross wind. Would like to know if the more pronounced blazers catch more cross wind than the low profile duravanes. Worth a try I think.

14-11-06, 08:37 AM
Ant

Yes I have checked and drift is as you would expect a factor of surface area less = less drift , one of the main reasons for doing this testing was to work that out , I am hunting in NZ in May for Tahr and the big breeze is a standard torment for bow-hunters.

By the time I leave I Will be shooting the new Vectrix XL and was thinking of switching to the Beman HIT arrows being a lessor diameter the combination should be less wind drift effected than most.

Antarcher
14-11-06, 09:19 AM
You could even try Easton Axis 400. I am switching to these as they have a nice narrow diameter with very thick walls keeping them very consistent, strong and still have good weight, grains per inch, for kinetic energy. By the way which vanes had the best effct in the crosswind.

14-11-06, 12:00 PM
Least drift was with the Low profile Duravanes at 50m they were noticeably less effected by the cross breeze , but most of all and this is what I like they landed straight in the target not tail left in the breeze as the others did , hitting a target tail left or right in a breeze will steal heaps of penetrating energy heaps !! and that's what you need to keep when your shots are stretched.

Easton own Beman these days so there probably ain't a lot of difference in the Axis and the Max shafts , your right though they make a good proposition I like to shoot 9-10 gpi on my shafts, my Beman ICS are 9.1gpi and I can make them sing from the Trykon.

Simon.

NormGunston
14-11-06, 02:34 PM
Simon, I wasn't sure of the relevance of my question, but for a couple of days I've been wondering about your results (and thanks for taking the time to post them). About the Whisker Bikkie. What do you think; If a person used the WB (in comparison to a drop away or shoot-through rest) and had less than great form, would they be able to fine tune to the extent that you did in your trials? The reason I ask is because the arrow and fletches are in contact with the WB bristles for the length of the arrow. Could an archer's faults be amplified by this and result in fletch/shaft/broadhead combination inconsistencies? Or is it just the case that a "developing" archer wouldn't be capable of achieving such "small increments" of accuracy for tuning purposes anyway? Just a thought, thanks.

interceptor
16-11-06, 10:16 AM
Great post Simon,

Sounds like you put a lot of effort into it, good stuff.

Cheers Noel

16-11-06, 11:32 AM
Norm

I am not sure about that , but its a good question , I know hand torque and form will still effect your accuracy even with a drop away rest , I don't think there is any getting away with that , particularly with the speed of bows we shoot today , I didn't detect any over sensitiveness in the WB vs the NAP drop away that I had on prior.

James_Stone
16-11-06, 12:06 PM
Norm,

I am pretty new to the sport and am using a WB. I haven't had any probs getting consistent accuracey for a decent tune...

I think it will come down to the individual archer.... Even a great bowman can have a bad day, just make sure that you aknowledge that its a bad day and leave the tuning for another time.

Kimall
16-11-06, 05:59 PM
Obviously this showed that the arrow rest had to be moved to the right in order to bring the shots to centre
Why would you say that Steely could it not just be that the sights need to be shifted and not the rest?If it is shooting perfect through paper then would that not indicate the arrow is coming out as straight as it poss. can?
Mabey I have read it wrong(most likley) but I have always worked on the best arrow flight possible and then set the sights to suit.In my experience with people(particularly)newer shooters if you work with the sights for the tuning process people start to manuver the bow around to get the right sight picture and dont let the bow sit unmolested in the hand.I have even seen a string come off at release because the bow was torqued so bad as the person tried to line up the sights.There are as many ways as there are people but I have always found bare shaft tuning the simplest way and as it gets closer and closer to tune you can just move further away from the target until the arrows fly straight out to 20 or more mtrs as it gives you more time to see how the arrow is really flying.I dont believe you need to adjust the bow for b/heads if it shoots perfect with a field tip then a good quality b/head of the same weight wil;l do the same.At times I think when people move the rest around when changing over to b/heads they are infact finding the sweet spot for that arrow and not the sweet spot for the bow.I must make a note here that this is for release shooting and even though much is the same for finger shooting I dont consider myself experienced enough to commment here on that. :D
Cheers KIM
PS I you want to blue now Steely give me a ring...... :D :wink:

16-11-06, 10:04 PM
Good one Kim

As you say there are many ways to skin this cat , but I found it interesting the amount of Left variance (in my case) became more pronounced with less tail end steerage.

At that point moving the sights to the left would have moved the range of arrows in to centre but the differences in their points of impact though small would have remained the same.

I had good paper patterns with field points and was dead on centre , then got good broad head patterns through paper before and after the adjustment.

The slight adjustment made no impact on the paper that I could detect so the arrow flight was ok before and after, but the range of fletch types I was using came together on the target ,that suggested to me that I had as you say found the sweet spot combination for the bow with that arrow and its performance out wide seemed to support that.

Could be wrong but it sure is shooting sweet now.Everything that weighs 125g hits the same spot.

I guess I came about it this way because I only shoot broad heads from the Trykon and Perfect tune (have it or just think you have) is best detected with the flight of a broad head.

I know a lot of people stuggle with this as perfect arrow flight is harder to detect with field points and the need for change only becomes evident when blades are up front. I have seen it over and over , Ive even heard bright folks talk about having two sets of sights one for where their broadies land and one for field points.

I figure past the basic set up stage where shaft spine and good arrow flight are determined and you know your not contorting or molesting your bow on release, Tuning your bow with broad heads to squeeze that last little bit is logical.

I wont blue with you brother :wink: Its just how I find it.

Kimall
18-11-06, 01:34 PM
Now I have had time to reread the posts prop I might comment on the WB rests.I have seen some people mount these rest a fair way back from the grip as you would an overdraw and it must be kept in mind that this will make the bow less forgiving the same as the overdraw.The riser shape together with the way some of the brakets are on WB this could be a prob.The perfect situation is to have it level with the plunger hole but of course this is rarley possible so we must work with the best possible compramise.Steely I think we are agreeing :? but it is to hard to do this with typed words as I get tired from all this typing so I will fly up to see you soon and get it sorted then.One point also to keep in mind is that many people talk about good groups being related to good tune so a bow manf. put one of their bows in a shooting machine and with perfect tune it was shooting great groups.They then adjusted only one limb by 3 turns and shot it again and the groups were the same size just in a differant place on the target.I think a bow in perfect tune is a more forgiving bow and this is why they are more accurate to shoot as they cover some sloppy shooting. :wink: I still believe that the correct spined arrow shot out of a bow with release that comes out perfect straight will be the most accurate possible with b/heads or f/tips.......Now I am tired
Cheers KIM