Trad Hunters with Modern Gear??

[VerminBeware]

Call me the devils advocate - or worse if you find it appropriate (I'm sure I've been called worse during my 10 years with NSW Police) but isn't it a bit strange to use modern gear (such as carbon arrows, modern broadheads, plastic vanes or synthetic fletching etc) with a trad bow??

Kind of like traditional landowners (whatever they are) using modern fishing boats and nylon nets to get everything from the river.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts - constructive criticism would be the most interesting of course.

[Sparra]

Most Trad bows now are really only lookalikes of days gone by...Modern timbers,glues,strings etc. I use both woods and carbons out of my trad gear but I really think the term "Taditional bow hunter"has more to do with the simplicity of the gear used rather than what the gear is made of...
Sparra...

[Piggy]

Mate I shoot trad geat with carbon arrows, my main reason for doing so is after numerous attempts to find some wood shafts that will shoot well as a bare shaft out of my bow I was unable to do so
So I shoot carbons as I get better arrow flight and I think I owe it to the game I hunt to be able to place my arrows well for a quick kill and are a lot stronger.

[Garden Gnome!]

As one of my closest friends and mentor said to me we are higher up on the evolutionary scale so why not take advantage of it or be left behind.

[jindydiver]

Kind of like traditional landowners (whatever they are) using modern fishing boats and nylon nets to get everything from the river.
.

Are "trad" hunters getting to hunt where no-one else can? I don't see how you could think that a label bowhunters (archers) use to define (however sloppily) a section of individuals who use certain archery equipment is analogous to aboriginals exercising traditional hunting rights (some might say abusing them)?

[Clinglish]

I see your point ,it is a conversation I have had with trad shooting friends the main reason I shoot carbons with my trad bows is simply time.
The art of making a beautiful arrow that flys well and cosistantly takes a great amount of time and effort as I can build a carbon shaft from blank tos finished in under 10 minutes excluding drying time of the araldite.This includes wrapping, fletching, and inserts.

[Paul R]

I use carbon, alloy and wooden shafts as well as plastic nocks and modern broadheads. I have wooden self bows, modern fiberglass and carbon limbed bows. I call myself a traditional archer and bowhunter.

I agree with Sparra, in my opinion it isn't the materials they are made of, but the simple and uncomplicated nature of the tools themselves which define them as traditional.

For me it's the simple, elegant lines of a traditional bow in my hands with the full weight of the limbs pulling on the string in my fingers at full draw. The uncomplicated nature of the nocking, drawing and releasing of an arrow which is fired instinctively. Along with the romantic link to the hunters of the past which captures my imagination, it's these attributes which attract me to the use of traditional equipment.

[Ben Kleinig]

G'day,

I think the term "traditional" as applied to archery / bowhunting is an attempt to describe recurves and longbows simply.

Before the invention of the compound, and even a little after, there was no such thing as traditional or modern, there was just archery or bowhunting.

The term is certainly in imperfect one, as it can seem misleading. Perhaps the label "recurve / longbow shooter" would be a more accurate, though less romantic, label than "traditional bowhunter" - especially when I use a Toyota to get there, and have a Sony Sureshot camera, a GPS, and an EPIRB in my backpack, and my clothes come from www.cabelas.com.

I think the term is basically trying to make the link to the fact that for thousands of years, bowhunters bent a stick (whether composite or not, recurved or not) using their own strength, and aimed without the kind of sighting available today.

As for arrows, if you go back before the term "traditional" came out, when everyone was simply an archer or bowhunter, you'll find a mixture of materials, from wood to aluminium and fibreglass.

These days, the technical term given to the type of archery / bowhunting that involves building your own simple and totally natural bow, and making your own totally natural arrows, is "primitve". If you're interested in that aspect, check out Primitive Bowhunter Magazine (do a web search).

So, most of us "traditional" bowhunters are simply following in the footsteps of Fred Bear and Howard Hill and that era (although Hill used wood shafting predominantly, he used aluminium for his elephants) instead of Ishi, Saxton Pope, or Art Young.

I hope this explains a bit of the history and terminology. The main thing is that words have their limitations.

All the best,

Ben

[bear]

You hit the nail on the head ben :D

[hawkeye]

huh?

i'm no indian and don't use a horse to get to my hunting spot either.

hunting with a non-compound bow doesn't mean you have to turn into Hiowatha and i don't pretend to be some stone age throwback.

i'll take a the best of what modern technology can provide for my STICK bow hunting.

if i wanted to drag a heavy hunk of metal with sights etc through the bush i'd prefer to take my rifle, that's the only reason i hunt with a trad bow - not because i think i'm hunting just like Robin Hood would've. not at all.

[aussiehunter]

hawkeye,mate good on u for shooting ur stickbow,is there any need to rubbish compound bow shooters by ur remarks...

,
mate ive shot most styles,i own compounds ,recurve and longbow,in all my years the way i looked at it,was as long as u were shooting arrows it was all good..

i dont care if a bloke shoots a compound sighted or bare,if he shoots a trad with carbons or wood or even throws a sight on his recurve...

lets not rubbish or belittle each other styles,i ve heard so much of that crap at clubs its sickning.

pat :)

[hawkeye]

i didn't think i did Pat.

and re-reading my post i still don't think i did.

but if perceived that way then i apologise.

easy to get on your high horse when having to justify your pusuit i admit. :?

however i don't hang out at clubs and what you're sick of is new to me eh.

[aussiehunter]

mate what i was getting at is this remark..

if i wanted to drag a heavy hunk of metal with sights etc through the bush i'd prefer to take my rifle, that's the only reason i hunt with a trad bow - not because i think i'm hunting just like Robin Hood would've. not at all.

sorry if i offended u with my reply,just dont see any need to belittle any one s style,as long as they are shooting arrows ,should be all good...

pat

[hawkeye]

fair enough Pat, but i was only talking about my personal preference and not compound hunters/hunting in general.

still, it was unnecessary and off the topic. :oops:

the original question did get my gander up though - 'traditional' to me just means 'non-compound' and nothing about being some sorta purist that forbids you using any sort of modern technology - where did that definition of 'trad' come from?

[Luke]

Perhaps for some of us, who were born into the era when compounds were already in existence even compounds could be regarded as "tradtional". Especially some of the earlier models.

If you look at the term of "traditional" meaning - of or related to tradition and the definition of "tradition" beingn:

tra·di·tion /trəˈdɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[truh-dish-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.


So for me, who's father began hunting with a compound (barebow) before I was born, and that was all I knew bowhunting to be for my early years my "tradition" could well be to hunt in the manner my forebears handed down to me, and, that was with a barebow compound.


Just trying to put another angle of possible perception on it ;)

Food for thought.

:)

[bigwal_123]

good point Luke. i use alloys and carbons out of my recurve. havent actually ever used woods but ive seen them and i reckon they fly a bit too wonky for my accuracy. sorry if i hve offended anyone who uses woods.

Wal

[Mick Smith]

The term 'Traditional Archery' is one that has developed in the US and to a certain extent, here in Australia as well. The term simply describes the use of archery equipment that was in common usage before the introduction of compound bows. It is a commonly accepted term to describe the process of using archery equipment that was available back in the 1960's and any modern equipment made along similar designs, ie, recurves and longbows.

There were aluminium arrows available back in those days. There were also fibreglass arrows, which were basically the forerunners of modern carbon arrows. So using these modern materials doesn't go against the term of 'traditional', by the above defination of what it actually means to most people.

There is another commonly accepted term called 'Primitive Archery'. Archers who are into this sort of archery wouldn never consider using anything but all wood bows and wooden arrows, usually all made by their own hands. They're usually also into wearing primitive clothing. I dare say, they would still drive their car to where they would commence their hunt.

I hope this clarifies the subject to some extent for you. :wink:

Mick

[Luke]

Thanks for that Mick.

I guess it does have a generic term and definition, but also can depend on your own perspective :D

:)

[VerminBeware]

Thanks for all the replies guys - this is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about...

Referring to traditional landowners netting the river was not meant to be a comparison to trad hunters.... So I hope nobody got the wrong idea..

Each to their own I say....

Perhaps a term like 'trad look' or 'may contain traces of trad' would be more appropriate - although these don't have the romance that has been mentioned already.

How about 'High Tech/Low Performance'? Like Harley Davidson motorcycles.

That is sure to get some more replies??

I was a little dissapointed with some of the replies though making it a trad V's modern equipment argument with a little s*%t slinging thrown in... I was just hoping to hear some views - not turn it into a war...

Keep them coming - thats what the site is all abour right? expressing your own points of view...

[aussiehunter]

vermin sorry we dissapointed u :lol:

maybe u need a big can of toughen the @#$% up :lol:


[all said in a non offensive manner :wink: , a joke otherwise]


pat :)

[hawkeye]

"Perhaps a term like 'trad look' or 'may contain traces of trad' would be more appropriate - although these don't have the romance that has been mentioned already. "

Jeeezz.... who's doing the sh$t slingling??? i reckon you've got all the replies you need AND you knew what the replies would be anyway.

thinly veiled sh$t stir is all your query is VerminBeware. :evil:

you're obviously MIFFED mate eh. :roll:

[Arra Slinger]

Geeez :roll: :roll: :roll:
Cant someone ask a question without it getting personal?
Hawkeye you are all on the defence about this yet it is ok for you to rubbish compound shooters huhh...
Each to there own.
If everyone shot the same bows with the same gear at the same sorts of animals what a ****ing boring world huh.

I shoot all sorts of bows with all sorts of gear, and for me it's not about what is better it's just about getting out there and "bow"hunting.

Vermin
As for the original post i think its a good one, and gets ya thinking.

[hawkeye]

i'd 'already' apologised about my compound dig arraslinger. :?

of course be boring if all did the same (love my rifle etc).

i thought you were adding to the 'original' thread/topic question when i noticed your post. pity. be interesting.

i do reckon Vermin's deliberately having a 'poke' with one of his broadheads (from his compound of course) and probably over-zealously attacked his 'bait' (possibly given a defensive trad rant he was seeking?)...?

and i def'n plan on getting a compound down the track (i'm new to bowhunting (and new to this 'trad/compound' debate which appears old hat and harmful and i hope never to venture near it again).

anyway, i'm looking forward to 'un-romantically' chasing game this weekend in my deluded pseudo 'un-traditional' hunting world. 8)

[adam]

I call myself a traditional bowhunter when using a recurve longbow or selfbow, And Im happy so who cares what anyone else puts it down too.

Oh and all compound shooters sux :wink: arrr ex pounder shooters are the worst. just like reformed smokers :wink: .

Traditional bowhunter
Adam :D

[Glenn]

As Mick said Traditional is just a term to describe archery equipment in use beore the introduction of the compound bow. When I started bowhunting back in the early 70's there were no compounds to be seen then. Allow arrows have been around since the 1950's and beautiful recurve bows were made made of steel in China and India over 500 years ago. I have a steel bows here that was made in 1957 and with the bow was a matched set of hollow steel arrows. The bow is a Sefab and it has hollow steel limbs, English made I think. So really Traditional can be made of just about anything man can manufacture.
And if you think we have come a long way with archery equipment than just give some thought to the acient Persians (Iran) who could shoot over a 1/4 of a mile with their beautiful composite bows centuaries ago...Glenn...

[HOOD]

And if you think we have come a long way with archery equipment than just give some thought to the acient Persians (Iran) who could shoot over a mile with their beautiful composite bows centuaries ago...Glenn...
:shock: I'd like to see that how cool.

Ay see that there rabbit on the next block.

>yeah

Twang..........

sits down and rolls a smoke lights it has a couple of puffs, has a slurp of herbal tea...... stands back up and finds arrow still in flight

waiting..... still waiting........Whack

There ya go mate go and get tea for us will ya :lol:

[Glenn]

They must have been some craftsmen to make those bows, these bows use to be made in stages and took several years to make...Glenn..

[adam]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Glenn, my mind ran wild with the thought of what you posted, amazing.

Adam

[Glenn]

Sorry everybody I had to edit my post about the distance shot with Persian bows, having a seniors moment there....Glenn...

[hawkeye]

the Persians and the Welsh longbowman etc - how did they do it Glenn??

must've had a heap of auxillaries continuously making up equipment - as there must've been a lotta wear and tear on bows and arrows with all that practise. can't just buy a heap of carbon replacements off the cuff like us.

a lot of what the ancients did is now a lost art.

[Paul R]

Glenn I was reading a book the other day that you loaned me, "The Bowyer's Craft" by Jay Massey and he states that "One of the longest recorded flight distances ever made by a Turkish bow - witnessed by the British Ambassador Sir Robert Ainslie - was made by the Ottoman Sultan Selim III in 1798, when he shot an arrow a distance of 1400 pikes. Fourteen hundred pikes equates to 953 yards! " :shock:

Ainslie also apparently regularly witnessed shots over 750 yards, with distances recorded at 838 yards, 810 yards, 805 yards, 764 yards, 762 yards, 760 yards and 759 yards by other Turkish archers.

Those bowyers sure did know how to make a composite bow and it's a pity that most of their secrets have been lost.

[Glenn]

The acients shot extrodanary distances alright, they could do feats with their bows that are hard to believe. George Catlin in the 1830 when he traveled the interior of the Northern America said that he saw indians who could shoot an arrow for maxium distance and could shoot off another 9 arrows before the first one hit the ground. I've tried it and I can only get away 3 at best.
Hawkeye the English didn't have good yew for bows but they use to levy a tax of so many yew staves for every barrel of wine they bought from the French, that's how they came to have good supplies of timber for their longbows.
When the English fought the French at Agincourt they had something like 20 tons of arrows. The English use to put quotas on their arrowsmiths who made the bodkin amour piercing heads, their fletchers who made the arrows, the bowyers and the string makers....Glenn...

[perry]

One thing I have noticed in modern traditional styled archery is that those of us that shoot for example pre 1900 technology equipment are considered quirky , strange , weird if we compete with such outdated equipment or unethical if we hunt with it buy some devotee's of fibreglass and carbon . Horses for courses I say , Mr Easton first shot his alloy arrows in the late 1920's - a decade or two before fibre glass was introduced into bow design so why do most governing bodies only allow wood arrows in traditional divisions but dont outlaw fibreglass laminated bows for the same reasons . I reckon the marketing guru's have us all on the hop ,wood grain painted carbons , clear fibreglass so we can see the wood grain underneath , there was even a mob that marketed flintnapped stone lookalike steel broadheads , one manufacturer was taking the arch out of archery - no wonder Im so confused . regards Perry

[Clinglish]

I honestly thought that Trad related to the transfer of energy.
Acompound through it's design stores energy as well as increases it through mechanical force.
Whilst a trad style bow doesn't amplify the energy or store it this way

[Glenn]

Some of the law makers Perry are as narrow minded as their laws, it's a pity some of our law makers in the past didn't have more knowledge of Traditional Archery. Myself I think they were more intrested in control rather than what was good for archery or bowhunting.
Some traditional bows have a mechanical advantage over others such as the recurve. Thats why there are different styles of recurves, working, non-working and static recurves have different mechanical advantages from one design to another. Even in longbows you can design limbs to have a mechanical advantage over other designs.
There were even bows like the Penobscot American Idian bow that had three strings and the way these bows shot I would doubt that even todays modern compounds could deliver an arrow with the same amount of penetration that these bows did...Glenn...

[perry]

Glenn I have made 2 penobscot bows now and feel I am only getting an inkling of the performance they are capable of . Both bows required arrows 15 pound above there draw weight , most bows without arrow shelves and no centreshot require arrows spined under there draw weight and I have not got the design of the short bow right yet but felt the bows exceeded the performance of a equal draw weight fibreglass laminated recurve.
Fair point on the rule makers as well . Recently I queired IFAA and ABA on the rules they put forward for a pre 1900 technology classic bow division where they outlawed the use of hide glue and linen bowstrings and self nocks but allowed plastic nocks [ just some of the gems they put up ], offered a lot of facts many solutions and included research and references for them - the buggers completly ignored what I provided and would not even reply to any of my follow up letters or emails . Guess I will think twice before I shoot in there comps again ," indeed what is traditional in 2007 ". regards Perry

[Jimmy Alexander]

Hey vermin, i was trying to flick a fly off my screen absent mindedly for about 2min before i realised it was your avatar.Lol

[perry]

Late to post as usual same as I am late [ reluctant ] to consider fibreglass used in bows , carbon arrows , synthetic bowstrings bowstrings etc as Traditional in the sense that I understand the word - Traditional style is a more accurate term . Anyone that knows me will know I'm a primitive at heart and endevour to learn all the associated archery equipment skills I can .

While I fully support anyone that takes advantage of all the modern innovations and use some such as synthetic bowstrings and modern points , I think it is of critical importance that we dont lose sight of the fact that as modern traditional archers we owe the traditionalists before us the respect of continuing on there developments and innovations especially the prehistoric up pre 1900 , to me this is what traditional is .We cant allow it to be swamped by consumerism and bling advertising . regards Perry

[bigwal_123]

i'm with hawkeye here. if i wanted something heavy to carry, i would carry a rifle. i use beman camohunter 500 shafts with vanes and tusker b/hs. this works fine for me (except when i miss the shot-happens a lot). i also have an alpine bow quiver as it is less expensive than a leather one.

Wal

[rinaldo]

As a complete novice to "trad" where do FITA recurve shooters fit in to the scheme of things. They shoot with sights but its still a recurve?

[Glenn]

Perry I agree with you, a lot of traditional archery equipment today is consumerism based. They continually come out with the newest arrow shaft material or broadhead or whatever to get the archery communtiy to buy their product. A lot of it is just pie in the sky, people are forever chasing their arse buying the latest gadget to give them an advantage in the field or on the range that very often isin't going to happen. It's nothing new. I have old archery cataloges from before the compound era full of archery gadgets and gimicks. Archers no matter what era or what they shoot will always strive to improve the equipment they use.
Even primitive archers are always looking for that magic stave to make a selfbow from or a quality piece of stone that will knapp into really good broadheads.
Rinaldo, using sights is not new to archery, they have been used for a long time. Medevil archers use what was called a shooting stick on the battle field. it was a staff with hand marks on it for extreme range and other distances so the could put maximum arrows at the distances they needed...Glenn...

[perry]

It appears to me that many bows today are designed like most fishing lures. They are designed to appeal to the buyer, not to catch fish. The american public has been conditioned to try the new improved model and there is a differant one every year . Each model is represented as being "better and faster" than the last . If all the claims were true and all the faster tallied up for the past years, bows would have to be shooting 500fps. Which just cant be ! John Schulz 1975 , having his bit on the techno boom in recurve bow design

Kinda say's it all hey Glenn , a bit of a phophet I say . regards Perry

[Glenn]

It wont change in the near future either Perry. It will juts keep going on and on lining the pockets of manufacturers. I still have the first bow I bought in the early 70's and it still shoots well...Glenn...