Ethical Question

[Carl_SlayR]

Friend of mine thinks its ethical to shoot game with 30-45lb trad gear, is this correct in the opinion of others ?

[interceptor]

Carl,

How's it going mate? Glenn is the Lad who knows, he only hunts with trad gear under 50lb. But as I am sure he would tell your friend, all the normal rules apply, shot placement, sharp broadhead, ability of the hunter to place the arrow in the zone etc etc.

Cheers Noel

[Arra Slinger]

Very good question Carl
there is a bloke from my club that shoots a just over 40# recurve that he hunts with now when he told me he hunts with it i near on fell over but as the conversation went on it was obvious he knew his limets. He makes sure B/H are RAZOR SHARP and he gets to WITHIN 10 meters from the game but he only hunts goats and small game . He is very ethical minded so i think if he thought it could not do it he would not and he has been hunting for about 25 years so i cant question him.

good post mate

Ben

[Marcus26]

Ethics is a relative concept. What is ethical for one may not be ethical for another.

If they can hit a dinner plate at 35-40 yards on a target range then my ethics would support it.

[Howling Dog]

If he is accurate with his equipment not a problem, I have seen a few over the years shoot heavy poundage that they coudn't pull back to anchor and would spray them everywhere. An arrow at 40# behind the shoulder is more ethical than 70# plus? in the arse!

[brian]

yeh - I'm with the others on this - accuracey is KING. saying that tho i wouldnt consider 30lb to be addequate for pigs or larger game, because their bodies are so solid - but i reckon it would be ok for goats and rabits. In the end tho its the arrow that does the job, so i would personally say it would be a heavy arrow out of a 40lb as minimum for pigs. it'll be good to hear from glenn on this one as i know he likes to hunt with bows about 45lb with heavy arras - and hes taken some really good pigs and other game with his gear.

[Pete]

One day after a hard days dogging we brought home 2 70kg and 95kgs baors, me and a mate got out our bows and were shootin the dead eviscerated carcasees to test penetration. His 55lb tiger compound did alright but the 30@28lb longbow deflected of the sheild alot of the time and got almost no penno all the others, that was with a ribtek BH, 2117 alloy, 3x 5in vanes. its pretty much what i would've expected from such a light setup.
I have aslo shot hares and rabbits with that longbow and i would have to say i dont recommend such poudages even for small game simply because the hares can run bloody far, and the rabbits get away into thick cover and lignum pretty quick too. The only good thing about it was having an arrow helps em to get caught in the lignum, often preventing them from getting too far away. even with the broadheads i saw it bounde of rabbits.

Pete F

[FentonW]

My experiance with pigs is accuracy is key, but without penitration you have nothing. I would only use cut on impact 2 blade heads on heavy perfectly matched arrows out of a minimum of 50 pound (For me). I wouldn't use under 40 on Goats either.
Cheers, Fenton.

[Axe]

Ethics is a relative concept. What is ethical for one may not be ethical for another.

If they can hit a dinner plate at 35-40 yards on a target range then my ethics would support it.

I agree with the ethics being a relative concept etc statement.

But I believe there is far more involved when hunting than just being able to be to hit a dinner plate at 35-40yds.

ie Having the equipment able to deliver sufficient power / penetration to dispatch the game that's being hunted.

IMO anyone shooting pigs, bulls, goats etc with a 30 pound bow, is not fairdinkum, & should be advised to think again, even a relatively well placed shot at 10m on a soft skinned animal such as a goat could quite simpley not penetrate if it hit a rib, shoulder etc. As for using it on pigs, bulls etc one would get what one deserves.

IMO 45# is sufficient if, as with all bow hunting, the hunter is proficient, type of game to be hunted & distance of shots is taken into consideration.

Many Americans hunt game with 40-45# bows, but I believe in some states that is the minimum allowable & not for all species.

Personally, and if asked I tend to steer people to 50# & over, however, being over bowed is as bad as being underbowed so... as with many other things in archery there is much to be considered before making assertions or broadbrush statements of what should or shouldn't be.

Ranting Again :roll:

[adam]

Not ranting Axe, thats good info in my eyes and was good to read.

Adam

[HOOD]

Not ranting Axe, thats good info in my eyes and was good to read.

Adam

Echo

[Glenn]

The last couple of trips up to the Cape I have been using a 42# longbow and have had no trouble at all with penetration but I have been using footed arrows around the 600gr-675gr mark. My arrows are balanced properly and leaving the bow cleanly for maxium penetration at my short shooting distances, also I barrell taper the arrows and make sure that the shaft is not thicker than the ferrull of the braodhead.
A lighter bow pulled to your full draw length will have better penetration than a heavier bow under drawn. I don't think that being able to hit a target at 40 meters will ever help anyone out in the field, some of the best shots I have ever seen on game were natural shooters who couldn't hit a target to save themselves, I never shot at archery shoots because I shoot well at shoots.
Some bows and designs are more efficent than others, why bother shooting a heavy bow when you could shoot a much lighter bow that delivers an arrow with the same momentum as the heavy bow. It's the momentum of the arrow that gives the penetration on the animal and not the bow poundage.
I would think that 30# is too light for hunting game like goats and definately not for pigs...Glenn...

[Axe]

Some bows and designs are more efficent than others, why bother shooting a heavy bow when you could shoot a much lighter bow that delivers an arrow with the same momentum as the heavy bow. It's the momentum of the arrow that gives the penetration on the animal and not the bow poundage.
I would think that 30# is too light for hunting game like goats and definately not for pigs...Glenn...

Isn't it the bow poundage that enables the arrows momentum which in turn creates the kinetic energy??

If you can handle a heavier bow, why would you want shoot a lighter one, if your momentum theory is correct, then it goes to follow the heavier bow shooting heavy arrows would be far more effective than the lighter bow.

If I was hunting bulls or buff etc or shooting at 20 - 25m on most game I know which I would prefer :)

[Paul R]

Just out of interest I read something a couple of years ago which really surprised me. It was a historical study conducted in the late 1800's in the USA on Native American bows and one of the conclusions was that the average hunting bow was between 35# and 45# and that the majority of shots were taken under 15 yards.
It really made me rethink my veiws on what poundage I should be using.

[jindydiver]

Just out of interest I read something a couple of years ago which really surprised me. It was a historical study conducted in the late 1800's in the USA on Native American bows and one of the conclusions was that the average hunting bow was between 35# and 45# and that the majority of shots were taken under 15 yards.
It really made me rethink my veiws on what poundage I should be using.

And after your rethink, what did you conclude?

[Paul R]

I was caught up in pushing myself to draw more poundage and my form was suffering. I was drawing a 70# at 28" recurve and thought that I wanted to go higher. I had recieved what I now consider to be some bad advise when I was younger and that was that I should be useing 60# or greater for hunting. After reading the study it got me interested in finding out more on the subject so I read a few more things and talked to some people including Glenn. I then went and bought myself a 50# recurve and found that my form improved dramatically as did my groupings. I was also enjoying myself a lot more as it was less strenuous and more fun.

I have shot a lot of animals with this bow using heavy arrows and haven't had any problems with penetration. Most of my shots at game are from about 10m. I do use a 62# recurve and a 56# longbow regularly as well and can use them comfortably but I doubt that I will ever shoot higher than 62# again. So I have learnt and it has been pointed out on this website and others, by wiser people than I, that the key to shooting well is to shoot within your comfort levels. Whether that is 40-50# or greater.

[Axe]

So I have learnt and it has been pointed out on this website and others, by wiser people than I, that the key to shooting well is to shoot within your comfort levels. Whether that is 40-50# or greater.

I agree 100% Paul, one of the fundamentals of archery :)

[Glenn]

I think bow poundage would be the last consideration I would be looking for in a hunting bow these days. Early on I had bad advise also about bow poundage and went down the heavy bow track, big mistake for me.
The way I understand it it is momentum and not kenitic energy that delivers penetration. If you have two bows one is 70# and one is 55# and they both shoot the same weight arrow at the same speed they will have the same amount of penetration. There can be glaring differances in peformance from the different bow designs and styles. A bow that stacks is not efficent in storing energy whereas a bow that builds up more in the middraw range and has a lighter poundage build up at the end of the draw does store more energy and is a much more efficent bow.
A lot of longbows are badly designed and stack badly, a lot of hunters myself included went heavier in poundage to compensate, but it is not neccessary if you have a well designed bow...Glenn...

[Glenn]

Not at all Coach, I have shot a lot of different bows through the speed meter and you would be suprised at the results. I read on one of the American sites where a hunter was using a 75# longbow and was shooting an 800 grain arrow at 130 fps and he had a pass through on a bull moose. If I couldn't make a 55lb longbow to shoot an 800 grain arrow at 130 fps then I will walk from here to Burke backwards...Glenn...

[Carl_SlayR]

thanks for the replies people ........ will have a bit more of a talk to my friend

[Axe]

If you have two bows one is 70# and one is 55# and they both shoot the same weight arrow at the same speed they will have the same amount of penetration. Glenn...

Don't think that is the issue here, the same mass being propelled at the same speed will always have the same outcome. If you could throw it at the same pace & accuracy it would be the same.

Also I don't believe the discussion should be based on poorly designed bows verses well designed bows. I based my original reply to the question based on bow weights, not on good vrs bad.

It comes back to comparing apples with apples, so.... we have a well designed 45# & a well designed 60# bow, shot by the same person, at the same draw length, at the same distance into the same lump of whatever, using the same arrow, surely it would be ludicrous, IMO, to assert or even suggest that they would have the same outcome re penetration.

So... I ask again, if one can shoot eg a 60# hunting bow at his/her correct draw, comfortably, why would that person hunt with a significantly lesser weight bow, given all the variables that can effect the penetration when hunting?
:)

[jindydiver]

So... I ask again, if one can shoot eg a 60# hunting bow at his/her correct draw, comfortably, why would that person hunt with a significantly lesser weight bow, given all the variables that can effect the penetration when hunting?
:)

That's how I figure it too Axe. If you can shoot 60# well, why would you want to go backwards in weight?

[brian]

it;;;;

[Axe]

its an interesting point there - but - i can shoot my 60lb bows COMFORTABLY and pretty well when i do my part - yet i can always get slightly better groups with my 50lb recurve. this is more noticable at longer ranges of course, and one point in favor of the lighter bow is it can be shot for considerably longer times. wouldn't really worry bout which one i took huntin either - except for the really big stuff of course!

Firstly, let me say, each to their own, and it isnÃ*t my right & nor will I presume to tell another what he / she does or should do, but I must say....

Remembering this all started re the use of 30-45# bows & the fact I earlier said I believe 50# is ample but as with heavier bows only if all aspects are considered ie game, distance, proficiency etc. So this is not a case of, Why isnÃ*t 50# heavy enough? Rather, it is a case of Why 50# when you are able to use a heavier bow.

ThereforeÖ
WouldnÃ*t doing your part also apply to the 50# bow ?
Why would you forego the extra power & penetration if you are comfortable & shoot pretty well when more than likely more use or practice with the 60# could remedy the difference in group size, especially considering you say it is only a slight difference? Or do you believe that it's about shoot'n at longer ranges, if you do, then IMO you might need to revisit what bow hunting is about.

Shooting lighter bows for longer times might apply to target shooting, but IMO it has little relevance with regard to hunting .

Really big stuff being buffalo, elephants?? Would it be fair to say then because pigs & goats and others aren't really big stuff they don't deserve the same amount of consideration re penetration/despatch when it comes to hunting. Further, you say you shoot better groups at longer ranges, with the lighter bow, therefore can one conclude it would be acceptable to shoot these animals a greater distances with lighter bows and thereby reduce the chances of a clean kill even more? I think Not.

:)

[FentonW]

Well said AXE. Same goes for me. If taking a life means that you practice more and work out so you can shoot a bow in the 50' than that is as ethical as putting the arrow in the right spot. As far as pigs go large Boars can be placed right up there with all but the Buffalo. Most if not all people can work up to 50#'s, why hunt with 35-40# when it may be marginal at best?
Cheers, Fenton.

[humphrey]

incorrect information removed :oops:

[humphrey]

incorrect information removed :oops:

[Axe]

from what ive read and heard, in regards to glenn's debate, he's pretty much correct. i don't want to start a **** fight here, but its just what ive been told by numerous people when i first got into archery.
if im wrong, feel free to call me a moron. :lol:

an arrow may only be able to absorb a ceratin amount of power behind it when shot, and any excess power is released by way of vibration and noise. so for the 55lbs bow versus 75lbs bow shooting an 800 grain arrow, the 55lbs bow may transfer all 55lbs of energy into that arrow, and that may be the maximum energy the arrow will hold. so if you take the 75lbs bow and fire the same arrow, 55lbs will again be transfered to the arrow, and the leftover 20lbs gets released by the vibration, handshock, noise etc.

again, only what ive read and been told.....

Well that'll do me, my last post on this subject.

Humph, I won't call you a moron, but what a lot of ****, if you believe that, you gotta believe in Santa!

Remember when we say 800grn arrow, they would be the same weight arrow, NOT the same arrow, because of difference in bow poundage.

Also if you read again, I think Glenn was referring to momentum (speed) & badly designed vrs well designed, nothing about losing power due to vibration.

Think about the fact that the reason for different spine, thickness etc is to compensate for variation in poundage, otherwise why bother with different shaft sizes.

So assume a 75# shoots an 800grn arrow that is suitable for that bow, & if what you say is correct it loses, eg 20 pounds in vibration, would that not also apply to an arrow of 800grn suited to a 55# bow?? so therefore, it would follow, even if you are correct, the 75# would still be delivering more power than the 55#bow

I don't think you have to be a scholar to realise that if what you say is correct, why the hell does anyone make bows over 55# if there is no benefit, maybe the bow designers from Bear, Widow,Martin etc should talk to the ones that fed you this rubbish.

Maybe I'm a moron :?

[jindydiver]

but an arrow does not have an unlimited amount of energy storage. once it contains all the energy it can, the rest is wasted, and that is transfered as vibration and noise, which is exactly why you never dry fire a bow, the enrgy has no where to go.

Ahh, but it does, up to the point where the thrust causes the arrow to break apart (as we see with the carbons that occasionally shatter).

The effect which you may be confusing is that of the maximum speed of the bow. You can keep going to lighter arrows and your arrow speed will increase, but only to a point. From there on (any lighter in arrow weight) the speed will stay the same because you have reached the point where the limbs can only move so fast, and can only force the string forward at that maximum speed. From there on your arrow energy will decrease because your arrow speed does not increase, but you arrow weight is decreasing.

If your arrow is already at a weight that produces the maximum speed from your bow, and you then turn up the poundage of your bow (that same bow with the same weight arrow) you may in fact be wasting your time as the extra draw weight may not be converted to arrow speed as the limbs cant move any faster than they were when the bow was at the lower poundage.
This effect may be what was explained to you.

The effect we see as the arrow weight is increased (up from a nominal weight of say, 5 grains per pound bow weight) is different. Someone with a maths background may be able to write a small program to track the effect and show it on a graph.

[Axe]

Arrrrgh, bowhunters talk for G'Day :)

[jindydiver]

That's alright Jeff.
I am just trying to set Humphrey straight on something he might have misinterpreted.

Because I am sure nobody who wanted to show their face in public later would have told him the fairy tale he has been relating here.
:wink:

[humphrey]

ok, this is getting too complicated for my brain, so ill just shup up and keep using my 2018's in my curve. :oops:

[jindydiver]

I am saying that whoever told Humph" that rubbish about maximum energy storage of an arrow is full of ****.

[humphrey]

but isn't the extra noise from shooting a light arrow out of a heavy bow because the bow can't transfer all its energy into the arrow, and the leftover energy is felt as vibration through the bow? :shock:

[brian]

o;;;;

[jindydiver]

but isn't the extra noise from shooting a light arrow out of a heavy bow because the bow can't transfer all its energy into the arrow, and the leftover energy is felt as vibration through the bow? :shock:

Yes that is where the noise comes from. The arrow dampens the speed of the string as it absorbs the energy from the bow. When you use an arrow that is too light it doesnÃ*t resist the string (i.e. have enough inertia) to slow the string and so in effect you are dry-firing the bow. If the limbs could recover fast enough for the light arrow then the bow would keep transferring energy to the arrow.

The upper limit of a bows ability to transfer energy to the arrow is a function of the speed of the limbs, not the weight of the draw of the bow, or an arrows ability to ìabsorb energyî.

[brian]

o;;;;

[humphrey]

so if i took an arrow that was already too light for my 55lbs bow, and fired it out a 75lbs bow, would the arrow have any more power or speed behind it?

im knew to all the technical side of the sport, and only want to learn whatever i can. it may not be that what i read and was told by people earlier was incorrect, but i may have just misinterpreted the information.

p.s. i always failed physics at school. :oops:

[Axe]

ok well if i pissed you off for some reason axe then :roll: . but i think you have certainly misinterpreted my post from before. i would not consider ANY shot over my effective range of 20m - yet you insinuate that i'm unethical :roll: even tho i was talking about my accuracey at TARGETS. oh well i couldnt be stuffed going in to more detail re the other comments you made to me as they will obvoiusly just be misinterpreted again (i hope not tho). this is not a personal go at you axe (you are certainly one of the blokes on here that i have the most respect for re bowhunting knowledge/experience) i just feel that i you didnt understand what i was trying to say. ok i'll shut up now

Brian
Let's get one thing straight, read my stuff again, I ain't stupid, I didn't misinterpret, I didn't insinuate, I posted to you in the form of questions.

Furthermore, if I think your unethical I'll tell ya, haven't called anyone on here unethical to date, what makes you special?
Save your rolling eyes for someone who gives a stuff


Brian Wrote:

on second thoughts i guess theres also a good chance i might of misinerpreted your post too axe. i aint after a **** fight - just thought maybe you were having a (misunderstanding) go at me. i guess that the internet is a poor substitute for an actually (real life) conversation eh.

You didn't piss me off before but you have now, why? because of this lame ****, misinterpretation and the fault of the internet Wouldn't hurt if some re read the posts, & ask a question if they aren't sure, before getting the ****s, then retracting, because they misinterpreted[/b]

[jindydiver]

so if i took an arrow that was already too light for my 55lbs bow, and fired it out a 75lbs bow, would the arrow have any more power or speed behind it?

im knew to all the technical side of the sport, and only want to learn whatever i can. it may not be that what i read and was told by people earlier was incorrect, but i may have just misinterpreted the information.

p.s. i always failed physics at school. :oops:

No way to tell, because they are different bows, but the chances of the arrow being any faster out of a 75# bow, when it was already the fastest out of your 55# bow are about slim to none. ("Power" can only come from arrow weight or speed, the only two variables to work with)

In case you are thinking of experimenting along those lines :wink:, don't, it would be the same as dryfiring your 75# bow and it may stuff it.

Don't worry about it Humphrey, there is so much to know and you have about exhausted my well of knowledge with this one :D

[brian]

;;;;;;;;;

[ed]

so if i took an arrow that was already too light for my 55lbs bow, and fired it out a 75lbs bow, would the arrow have any more power or speed behind it?

im knew to all the technical side of the sport, and only want to learn whatever i can. it may not be that what i read and was told by people earlier was incorrect, but i may have just misinterpreted the information.

p.s. i always failed physics at school. :oops:

the bows being equal in all other respects as far as quality of manufacture then yes it would have more speed and therefore more power behind it.

If it was soo light to be equivalent to a dry fire would be unlikely IMO, would have to be a mighty light arrow, most modern trad bows can shoot pretty light arrows with little problem, often down to 6g per pound.

[humphrey]

say you had a certain arrow and fired it out of a 55lbs bow, and the arrow only managed to absorb 40lbs of power after it was fired, then how can it absorb more when fired out of a 75lbs bow? (lets say it was the exact same bow only different poundages). this is the thing that confuses me.

[ed]

say you had a certain arrow and fired it out of a 55lbs bow, and the arrow only managed to absorb 40lbs of power after it was fired, then how can it absorb more when fired out of a 75lbs bow? (lets say it was the exact same bow only different poundages). this is the thing that confuses me.

hehe sounds like rockets won't be able to work in a vacuum :)

You have got it backwards, the only issue the arrow has to face is if it can be accelerated at a higher rate without breaking. Lets assume it doesn't break then.
If the 55 pound bow imparted 40 pounds of it's draw weight into the arrow, then 15 pounds of the draw weight would be wasted in noise, heat, stress and vibration(73% efficiency). If the 75 pound bow is of equal construction quality then it would be able to impart 54.5 pounds of force into the arrow. The arrow has no choice in the matter other than to be accelerated under that force or break. Since I suggest we choose an arrow strong enough it should then be going approximately 25% faster out of the heavier bow.

[humphrey]

well thats cleared that up and i now understand. and thankyou for putting it in simple terms, ed. :D

[ed]

no problemo, best to use examples like you asked cos then it gets down to nuts and bolts. When asked opinions you always run the risk of a greek senate.

[ed]

hey coach, this is the simple stuff! :) I have been reading "The Traditional Bowyers Bible" and there is some thinking needed when reading that! All this about woods, growth rings, elastic properties, force-draw curves etc - like being back at school.