Hunter or Conservationist

[howie]

The first time I saw him thru the bino's feeding on the plateau, his dark brown coat with twisty horns - I thought he was a keeper billy. Time was running out for this 1 day hunt with Jack, (B4E), so I stored that image in the grey matter and thought next week I might catch up with him. Next week I was out there with Will and spotted him feeding with numerous other goats. I had him at 30 yards but the wind was blowing at almost velocity force and he slowly fed off not offering what I call a high percentage shot. Will then took a few goats, (see Tuesday's goats). I backed out and circled the plateau and came in front on as they were feeding towards me. The wind has relaxed its grip somewhat and as the mob fed within 15 to 20 yards, I had a good look at this billy, his horns are twisty but not that wide and he is still a young fella. This particular property manager wants the goats dusted - but I thought if he dissappeared into those rugged hills for a few years, he will probaly produce a nice curly set of horns around the 32 - 34 inch mark. He has the genes to grow bigger and this day was not his last. On this occassion I believe I did the right thing.
Today (Friday) - I found a few hours to have a hunt not far from town. The property owner doesn't let many people hunt, and I am one of the privileged ones. He does not want many goats shot as he rounds them up for a few dollars. I am allowed to take a trophy or 1 for meat, and thump as many foxes as I can. After looking over several mobs of young stuff, I was heading back to the car when a spotted a reasonable billy feeding thru the light hardwoods and granite bolders. He was feeding solo and an relative easy stalk got me 20 yards away. He fed this way and that and turned side on. I drew and he turned again, I wait at full draw for quite some time and when I went to down draw he would move again. He turned and the pin settled straight up his leg and in the lower third of the chest. Thump, The arrow completely penetrated his chest and he turned and ran towards me. As he went to hurdle the log I was standing by, I grabbed his right horn and turned him. He hesitated, jumped the log and bedded for the last time. A couple of pics then removed both back legs and front shoulder for the hounds. Most times they walk but not on this occassion. Pics when developed as usual......... Howie

[howie]

As a side note, I was using the Eastmans EXP Magnums, for those who dont know, they have a 2 blade leading the cut and 2 expandable blades that open up upon impact. The entry wound channel was the size of a small apple, the exit channel was similiar. They are probaly not as strong as our 2 bladers, but the cut they produce is awesome. Howie

[hunt or be hunted]

well done howie, cant wait for the pic's.

dan.

[wazza_X force]

dont quite get the title but good job anyways... u've really gotta get yourself a digital camera!!!

wazza

[will]

Good read howie!!

[Bowdy]

Great job Howie,
Hope he has your name on him in a couple of years;)
Looking foward to the pic's.
Grant.

[howie]

wazza, just saying that sometimes we are hunters and others times we are not. Regarding the camera, thats why I take b4e or Will with me, they have the flash cameras and great gate openers.....Howie

[Puk]

Sorry to play Devil's advocate here Howie, but i have the feeling that some would argue that by not taking a feral animal like a goat when you had the chance, you were in fact doing the opposite of conservation. Giving him a few more years means he does more damage and has a few more chances to breed, which in turn makes the problem worse.....

Now, with that said, i agree with you, and i probably would have done the same thing, it's the nature of our game. But does that make it conservation, or management hunting? It might be just semantics, but there is a bit of a difference IMO.

Don't take this as a criticism mind you, just an observation. I have no problem with what you did (it's none of my business anyway). I am just pointing out that "conservationist" might not be the right word when most of us argue that we are being conservationists when we DO kill feral species.


wazza, just saying that sometimes we are hunters and others times we are not.


Your decision to let it go was made as a hunter surely, just a hunter who is thinking ahead a few years.
I would be interested in your opinion on this Howie. Can you see what i mean?

Puk

[howie]

Puk, The act of Conservation - preservation. So the Macquarie Little Dictionary partly stated. Perhaps the terminology of Management Hunting would of better suited this thread, depending on your thoughts and ideas. I believe in leaving young billies to grow to their potential, not just shooting them of the sake of killing something. I was trying to inject some thought and interest in my threads! I do alot of hunting and enjoy sharing my hunting adventures with readers on this site.
It it entirely up to me when I drop the string on an animal, not anyone else. Sometimes I am a hunter and kill, othertimes I am a conservationist and let young animals walk................
Can you see what I mean?
Howie

[Puk]

I was trying to inject some thought and interest in my threads! I do alot of hunting and enjoy sharing my hunting adventures with readers on this site.

And i enjoy reading them. In fact, the nature of your posts made me think that you were someone who would be able to engage in a free exchange of ideas without getting defensive or sarcastic. Good debate is also something of interest.

I made an assumption in my last post. When i saw the word "conservationist" i thought it meant what the MSN Encarta Dictionary defines it as:


conservationist: a supporter of or advocate for the preservation of the environment, especially the natural world


I realise that "conservationist" can be used in other ways. In your case it meant to "preserve" the stocks of feral animals. Hence my misunderstanding.

As for:

It it entirely up to me when I drop the string on an animal, not anyone else.

no one is arguing with you on that. If you re-read my above post:
Now, with that said, i agree with you, and i probably would have done the same thing, it's the nature of our game.

Don't take this as a criticism mind you, just an observation. I have no problem with what you did (it's none of my business anyway).

But i still cannot see how letting feral animals live justifies calling yourself a conservationist, in the "preservation of the environment, especially the natural world" sense. By not killing the animal in question you are letting harm be done to Australia's environment that could have been prevented, yes?

[howie]

Puk, They do damage, you are correct! But so do sheep, 6 species of deer, buff, cattle and a host of other hooved (?) introduced animals. If I killed that billy, and probaly the other 150 goats we saw that day, in the very near future I would not have animals to pursue, thus my bowhunting would suffer greatly. If I selectively arrow a nice billy or a meat goat, the feral animals remain and my passion continues.
I still believe I am a hunter and a conservationist.
In hind sight, and after this "Management Hunting" terminology being brought to my attention, I can see your point of view.
Cheers and happy hunting
Howie

[Puk]

Well said mate.
Now maybe i can get over my jealousy that you have somewhere to hunt where you can see 150+ goats in a day!:o

Hope to hear plenty more stories. I especially like the way you take the youngsters out hunting..

Puk

[bear beau]

Nice read Howie!
I have access to a property at Trunkey, next time i'm out that way maybe we could catch up for a hunt or a coldie or both!
And dont worry i'll supply the camera!
Cheers, Brad...

[howie]

Puk,
No dramas. Happy to accept your apology, LOL

bear beau, Just PM me and we will tee something up, be good to meet you. Are you a hunter, conservationist or management hunter? Sorry Puk, I thought you would get a laugh from that one. Howie

[jindydiver]

Puk, The act of Conservation - preservation.

FWIW, in these times of increasing pragmatism about mans roll in the destruction (or otherwise) of much of the natural world (as opposed to concrete, yes WE are part of nature too), preservation relates to "natural" habitat and the animals (or plants) that occur "naturally" within that habitat and the saving of those animals or plants either directly or through the protection of their habitat. Conservationists now see that feral animal control in Australia is all about helping vulnerable species survive and managing threats to habitat (or the animal or plant itself) rather than the absolute of removal of feral species.
When you point out that there are also sheep and cattle on a lot of the properties where goats occur you acknowledge that the goats existence isn't the problem, it is the numbers of goats and the affect they have on the natural values within the area they are found.
You will find that nearly all feral animal control programs planed these days contain within then a study program to define the damage to the values the program is intended to protect, and to define the benefit seen after the program has been completed.

By not killing the animal in question you are letting harm be done to Australia's environment that could have been prevented, yes?


That is an argument straight out of the PETA handbook. If preventing ALL "harm" to Australia's environment was the goal then there would be no farming in Australia and probably no people either.
Allowing a male goat to get away without killing it is just that, letting ONE goat keep eating, and it has no effect on the population of goats beyond that ONE animal.
Would you make this argument to a farmer who allowed you to shoot the goats with your bow, given that it is plain he could do so much more by allowing RLPB to cull, or could even wipe them out himself with a gun or poison?

[Puk]

Would you make this argument to a farmer who allowed you to shoot the goats with your bow, given that it is plain he could do so much more by allowing RLPB to cull, or could even wipe them out himself with a gun or poison?


No mate, but then again i wouldn't call what i was doing conservation.

As i stated at the top of the page, i was playing devil's advocate. That term actually comes from the Catholic Church, for when they go to make someone into a saint. Someone else (a devil's advocate) is assigned to come up with as many reasons as they can why that person should not be sainted, so that by the time the act is carried out, they have heard and answered all the arguments and have a watertight case. That's what i wanted to do, to present some of the arguments that we might hear. Otherwise, as i said, we are unprepared if all we have is a lot of mutual back-slapping.

I also stated in my first post that "some might argue...". I'm sure it would be an argument that PETA would use (if they were capable of such rational thought as i am;)). It is for the sake of bowhunting that i say things like my first post, to see what the answers are that we possess among us. You might also like to call it stirring. Feel Free. But if we can't answer something i come up with, how are we going to answer those who have a real problem with what we do? As i have said repeatedly, i don't have a problem with it.

For the record, i think it was argued very well. Jindy, your first paragraph would baffle a lawyer, so it convinced me! If i am ever in trouble with REAL conservationists, i am going to call you to testify.

And Howie, thanks for the apology mate. You are as humble as you are wise.;)

Puk

[will]

haha this is good quality banter!!

[howie]

Thats the great thing about this site, the vast knowledge and experience contained within its ranks, truely amazes me. The different concepts and beliefs that are voiced are always interesting. I have an open mind on most issues, and this one is no different and I appreciate everyones opinions.
Puk - Happy to take the newbies out hunting and point them in the right direction.
Jindy - your the master of intelligence.
Happy Hunter Howie

[howie]

Since we all have opinions and have read the above posts,
did I make the right decision in allowing this immature billy to walk or the wrong decision, should I have taken him out. Please vote/comment
Howie

[Dale Furze]

I am, as Howie now knows a 'conservation hunter'. I preserve the future of sporting targets by letting the 'smaller than I have got' (in most cases) walk. I will tell you straight out that I don't do it (hunt with a bow) for the preservation of the environment or the control of vermin. I like to get out for a walk and enjoy the bush, if I want to shoot something, I shoot it for me, If I don't see something I like I will just lump my bow around all day quite content in the fact that I'm having a nice walk. I got what you meant Howie. Kick back and enjoy what bowhunting has to offer!

Dale.

[Dale Furze]

Mate, walk outside and check out the yapp'n moccasin and toothless ol'fella. If they are still fat, and over the fact that we didn't bring anything back for them, then you can sleep easy at night.

Put a vote down for letting them walk from me.

On the other side of the coin, all the goats I used to hunt that were constantly producing 110 - 130 DP Billies have been shot by the PPB. I'm tormented by my own thoughts of 'I should have gone out and just shot a heap of them before it happened', then the guy on my other shoulder says 'It doesn't really matter, It's not in you to do that, just get of ya backside and find another area with goats'.

I was preserving these particular goats due to the great genes they had. Sometimes that type of preservation does not pay off:(.

Dale.

[bowhunting4eva]

howie i think you did the right thing in letting that billy walk as now i can shoot him in a few years for you. but seriously i still think you did the right thing. you are conserving your hunting for later years.
i have never been out thinking to myself i am going to shoot a goat to help the environment. and to be honest when i have taken goats i have never thought to myself wow i just did a favour for the environment. i hunt cause i like hunting not to be a conservationist for the environment. i have let small goats walk by so i can hunt down the track.

[jindydiver]

Puk
To make it clear. I am not arguing.
As you would well know I am aware of the concept of devils advocate, and I fully understand that the position you take in this is about generating discussion not about convincing others it is the correct position. I ask that you understand that the questions I ask of you be viewed as much the same thing. If you must view discussion as argument rather than debate then I suppose I will have to label all rhetorical questions of you (or indeed others) as such.

Howie
I don't believe I am any smarter than anyone else, I do though spend a great deal of time reading on this subject and discussing it with like minded individuals. People I spend time in the bush with have all heard me waffle on about my vision for hunting in Australia, there may be a time when I will spend some time around a fire boring you with it ;)

[topendbowman]

Howie,
Whether YOU consider it right or wrong is what matters NOT what other's say. There is no law that states you must kill all feral species
If it makes you feel good inside letting the animal live..do it. No one else has any right to force you to do otherwise.
That does not mean they cannot criticise however..we are in a democracy and the door swings both ways.

Since we all have opinions and have read the above posts,
did I make the right decision in allowing this immature billy to walk or the wrong decision, should I have taken him out. Please vote/comment
Howie

[Puk]

Howie mate,
No question.
I reckon you did the right thing.
there are heaps of reasons to let an animal walk, but like TEB said, it doesn't matter what we think. You know you did the right thing, and that's what matters.
I aslo feel better about all those times i missed the animals i have pursued (like those bloody Chital). I was being a conservationalist!:D:P I'm kidding, I'm kidding......

Jindy, if you don't know what it is to play Devil's advocate then no one does. You are good at playing the part yourself, as well as keeping us informed of ALL the issues surrounding what we are discussing. I always learn a lot from your posts. And yes, sorry, arguing might be too strong a word, but healthy discussion is always a good thing.

We then become conversationalist hunters!:D:P

Peace.
Puk

[ozzyshane]

Some great posts guys
How about this angle if i where a greeny i would wont all feral animals destoryed like the PPB board as they are competeing with native animals for food and water so in there eyes you wountnt be a conservationist you would be a hunter looking after your hunting future like the rest of use are .

The saying let them go to grow must make a true conservationist really mad dont you just love that.

So in my eyes you carnt be both you are a hunter/game manager same as 99% of all bowhunter.

Thanks Shane

[Antarcher]

As TEB says, it doesn't metter what anyone thinks, as long as you yourself are happy with what you are doing. No one knows how many deer I pass up, but who cares if I don't tell them about it. Not a lot of people know when I even go hunting, so others are none the wiser when I have or haven't gone and what difference would it make if they did. In the end we all choose to post on here to share our experiences and views on things, ultimately though, all decisions are yours alone to make when oppurtunities arise.

All I know is that I absolutely love being out there regadless of the game seen or results in terms of kills or close stalks with no shot taken. The game council view deer as a game animal, so letting them go is fine in their books, others say destroy em all, so they have a different view.

Despite all the talk and banter and mateship, when it comes down to it, bowhunting is about one of the most personal things you could ever do and all the challenges involved and decisions made are all down to the individual who has the string at their fingertips when game is near.

I have hunted with a lot of other people and each and every one of them has a different perspective for their reasons to hunt. The one thing that always stands out though is the love of the challenge of taking animals with the bow.

[troy]

A 'True conservationalist' would not reproduce, live in a house, use/purchase any 'consumer' items and most definately would not be posting or replying to threads on this site. The greatest 'pest' on the earth has to be the human by comparrison of what we'd define a pest or feral animal as.
So I am not a conservationist in the true sense but somone that would conserve huntable game populations for my own human needs/satisfaction of having somewhere and something to hunt, just like you did Howie.

[wazza_X force]

sorry guys, but im with howie on this one!!!... im a bowhunter, and i loves me sport... i aint nockin over all the goats on one property to 'conserve' the land and ruin my pashion... u've simply gotta control the heards!!!:D:D:D

wazza